leeds Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I need a new recovery bridle for the 110 and am considering various options. One such option is to make a bridle out of a KERR. Have some questions before I start. Is it a good or bad idea to have a bridle made out of KERR? How easy is it to splice an eye into KERR? Has anyone got instructions or diagrams on how to splice KERR that they could post up? Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streaky Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I need a new recovery bridle for the 110 and am considering various options.One such option is to make a bridle out of a KERR. Have some questions before I start. Is it a good or bad idea to have a bridle made out of KERR? How easy is it to splice an eye into KERR? Has anyone got instructions or diagrams on how to splice KERR that they could post up? Regards Leeds Good morning Leeds. A bridles purpose is to evenly distribute the ropes loads across two secured points on both the stuck or recovery vehicle. The Kinetic recovery rope is there to do a different job.....connect the two cars together and use it's recoil/stretch energy to pop the stuck car out. Kinetic ropes are dangerous if not used correctly.....so by using another Kinetic element into the exercise you will introduce two dangerous elements into the pull instead of one..... I use a lifting strop of 1.5 meters as my bridle. Available from reputable industrial engineers and suppliers they have a certificate rating according to your needs. Of course the KERRs can be spliced, but like I said.....just use one KERR rope in the recovery exercise and a strop as the bridle. The one negative point of using a bridle is that it will introduce another two more shackles into the pull...unless you use something else like a DixonBate Jaw to attach each end to...... Many of use here in the UAE have stopped using metal shackles now and prefer to use the synthetic rope type shackles as used by sail boats. One synthetic shackle has a breaking strain of 9000lbs, so using two togther is a very safe way of attaching ropes to bridles. If any were to break then there is no danger of flying shackles either. To date....no-one in our club has managed to break one of the synthetic couplings so they get a massive thumbs up fom us in the Desert. Regards. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS26 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Many of use here in the UAE have stopped using metal shackles now and prefer to use the synthetic rope type shackles as used by sail boats. Hi, Could you explain further (perhaps a photo?) what a synthetic rope shackle is? It sounds really useful Rog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Mark Jenkins has some ready-made bridles. Not sure where he got them from, but I'll give him a nudge. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 Mark Jenkins has some ready-made bridles. Not sure where he got them from, but I'll give him a nudge.Les. Thanks Les. Hi Streaky I would certainly be interested in seeing a photo/web address etc for these synthetic rope shackles. I am always interested in seeing how different people do things. I now have twin recovery points on the back of the 110 as well as the front so started reassessing all my recovery gear. One of the thing I noticed was UNstamped shackles along with some stamped ones so will have to replace them as well. Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petergg Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 The length of the bridal is also very important, 1.5mtr is the shortest you should use any shorter will put extra strain on the chassis’s pulling it in as apposed to forward. You should also use a safety line to catch the Kerr if something fails, this is a piece of rope 12mm (ish) which is connected to the vehicle (solid point) and to the eye of the KERR if something lets go the 12mm rope will take the energy out of the KERR before the 12mm rope breaks. I hate the use of non controllable recovery methods, and should only be used as a last resort. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Jenkins Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I got my bridles from David Bowyer http://www.davidbowyer.com/ - they're in with "Winching Accessories" and were bought at the same time as my kinetic rope. Mark Jenkins has some ready-made bridles. Not sure where he got them from, but I'll give him a nudge.Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landrover598 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Something like this would be my choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smo Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Hi,Could you explain further (perhaps a photo?) what a synthetic rope shackle is? It sounds really useful Rog I'd also be interested to know what these are. I've been sailing for years (i'm an instructor too) and have never come across these syntheticrope shackle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streaky Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I got the synthetic shackles through our 4x4 club here in Dubai (although they are imported from Holland or Germany). I have asked the guy who sourced them to send me the website details and will post info as soon as I have it. They are made from plasma rope and look more like a sex toy than a recovery aide....thats not why I bought them though. I use two of them in place of one ordinary steel shackle. They are self adjusting so there won't be a slack one in the pair. Hope to get details very soon....be patient please. Thx. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streaky Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 http://www.lirosropes.se/pdf/XTREME%20Catalogue.pdf Here's the company that make the soft shackles. Look at page 16 in this PDF cataloge. They are very popular in our offroad club here in Dubai and so far I don't think one's been broken. If you decide to get some...go for the biggest size and if in doubt...use two soft shackles togther to half the strain during a pull. Regards. Streaky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS26 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 http://www.lirosropes.se/pdf/XTREME%20Catalogue.pdfHere's the company that make the soft shackles. Look at page 16 in this PDF cataloge. They look excellent - and strong too: Two questions please: 1. I wonder if to 'close' them, do you have to re-tie what looks (to me) like a fairly complex knot? This is ok for your average jolly jack tar, but I have always had big problems getting that rabbit back down the hole... 2. Are they easy to work with when caked in Yorkshire mud? Rog p.s. Sorry about the quality of the image - hope you can read it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 http://www.lirosropes.se/pdf/XTREME%20Catalogue.pdfHere's the company that make the soft shackles. Look at page 16 in this PDF cataloge. They are very popular in our offroad club here in Dubai and so far I don't think one's been broken. If you decide to get some...go for the biggest size and if in doubt...use two soft shackles togther to half the strain during a pull. Regards. Streaky. Thanks for that link. Looks very promising. A couple of questions for you. I presume you tie the stopper knot in yourself. Any knot or a special stopper knot? How easy is it to undo the knot? Then the last question any idea of prices? Tis is what Streaky is on about Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Ooops looks like two Yorkshire guys were busy doing the same thing at the same time. Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS26 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Ooops looks like two Yorkshire guys were busy doing the same thing at the same time.Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101nut Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 They appear to be fairly tight simple loops with a "monkey's paw" or similar locking them. I'd assume the main recovery bridle/strop could be attached with a pruzzick knot. I'd have little concern about the two knots however I see two problems: 1) They are obviously prone to cut damage which would seriously weaken them 2) I'd be concerned about using them in a 4x4 environment unless vehicles had 'soft' attachment points to prevent (1). Generally shackles do the job but that's what we're trying to remove from the equation! I think they'd be useful, even for temporarily joining ropes since they are heavily rated but, as attachments to the vehicle, significant care would be the obvious requirement. AndyG (Not a boy scout ...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 I would be reluctant to use them on the typical recovery points which are pieces of 10 mm (?) plate welded to things like winch bumpers etc. I believe that the square metal edge would cut into the soft shackle. If a recovery point is a round bar such as the Equipe type recovery points then the cutting effect would not be as pronounced. In testing ropes etc the larger the diameter of the bollards used as end attachment to the test machine then the higher the strength figure obtained. Basically the same principle would apply here. Now what I am thinking could metal thimbles be used (Like the ones which should be used when attaching a hook to a winch cable) Would certainly help at recovery attachment points on vehicles I for one certainly think that this idea merits more investigation. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Having spent hours playing around with these in Jason's kitchen, I can say thay you don't need to undo/tie any knots. The loop that goes around the rope just above the knot is formed by the rope passing down itself, like when you form a splice/eye in plasma rope. It passes all the way down so that both ends of the rope are included in the knot, this stops it possibly pulling undone in a heavy pull. To undo the shackle you simply open out the loop by pulling the rope out of the centre of itself and slipping the enlarged loop over the knot. A clever design that is easy to use. I do not know how easy they are to undo after being subject to heavy loads, maybe Streaky can comment, or when caked in mud, about which i doubt Streaky can comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwriyadh Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Inserting thimbles would just take back to the potential of flying metal objects, but this time smaller and therefore faster. Make your own but include a short piece of fire hose or similar to lessen the risk of damage. jw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Inserting thimbles would just take back to the potential of flying metal objects, but this time smaller and therefore faster.Make your own but include a short piece of fire hose or similar to lessen the risk of damage. jw I think my brain was lagging behind my typing fingers. You can actually get nylon thimbles which do the same job as the metal thimbles. I can see the use of these soft shackles in joining ropes together and to bridles. Am just slightly concerned how you attach them to recovery eyes on winch bumpers. Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwriyadh Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Recovery eyes made of square section material may be questionable, but any of round cross section should be fine especially when the soft shackle is protected by a reinforcing sleeve. Nylon thimbles I haven't seen. jw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS26 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 The loop that goes around the rope just above the knot is formed by the rope passing down itself<...> To undo the shackle you simply open out the loop by pulling the rope out of the centre of itself and slipping the enlarged loop over the knot. A clever design that is easy to use. Brilliant! I do not know how easy they are to undo after being subject to heavy loads, maybe Streaky can comment, or when caked in mud, about which i doubt Streaky can comment. I think I read somewhere that they are still easy to undo after heavy load and (doing a quick thought experiment) I would imagine this is the case. My initial concerns over mud I think were related to attempting to tie a knot when everything is covered in the stuff - I reckon with the way that this thing works, even mud wouldn't be too much of a problem. The one remaining problem IMHO is the potential for cutting if used with unsuitable recovery points (like those commonly found on steering guards) which have sharp edges. I assume that somewhere there will be a recommendation as to the smallest radius that these things should be used on, but I can't see it on the web site... All we need now is a UK importer or manufacturer... Any ideas? Rog p.s. we seam to have hijacked the 'bridle' thread here - sorry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streaky Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Having spent hours playing around with these in Jason's kitchen, I can say thay you don't need to undo/tie any knots.The loop that goes around the rope just above the knot is formed by the rope passing down itself, like when you form a splice/eye in plasma rope. It passes all the way down so that both ends of the rope are included in the knot, this stops it possibly pulling undone in a heavy pull. To undo the shackle you simply open out the loop by pulling the rope out of the centre of itself and slipping the enlarged loop over the knot. A clever design that is easy to use. I do not know how easy they are to undo after being subject to heavy loads, maybe Streaky can comment, or when caked in mud, about which i doubt Streaky can comment. Marks got it spot on. They are also very good stress relievers....just nice to fiddle with. You'd have to be a bit daft to try pulling on a sharp edge with these, even a sleeve would get servered under load. They are not suitable for every situation or every vehicle either....just another toy in the arsenal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Recovery eyes made of square section material may be questionable, but any of round cross section should be fine especially when the soft shackle is protected by a reinforcing sleeve.Nylon thimbles I haven't seen. jw JW The nylon thimbles do exactly the same job as the metal thimble at the end of a wire winch ropes. They are used in boating and caving. Inserted into a loop which is going to be loaded and it provides a bigger eye diameter which is good for the rope and good for the breaking strength. p.s. we seam to have hijacked the 'bridle' thread here - sorry... huh.gif Hi jack away Rog. I am finding this discussion very informative. It is a natural progression of a conversation. Anything which can make recoveries involving my vehicle safer I want to learn about Regards Leeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portal Bob Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Hi All, I have loads of Plasma offcuts and would be willing to have a play at making these. Anyone got a sample to use as a pattern??? Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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