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** MegaSquirting a V8 - "Basics of How to" ... The A-Z Saga


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Has anyone used COP's on there RV8 with MSnS-Extra in a landy? The reason I ask is that a mate is fitting a V8 in a 90 and was trying to find a place for the Ford coil packs and asked the question. Are they waterproof enough as the gentleman will be wading, is there a weight issue with COP's and vibration, crashing and banging about would that be a problem? Would wiring up to EDIS8 be the same? And thinking logically we should be able to run waisted spark as with the Ford coils firing No's 1 & 6 COP's and so on...

Its just an idea but thoughts please.

Jeff

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Has anyone used COP's on there RV8 with MSnS-Extra in a landy? The reason I ask is that a mate is fitting a V8 in a 90 and was trying to find a place for the Ford coil packs and asked the question. Are they waterproof enough as the gentleman will be wading, is there a weight issue with COP's and vibration, crashing and banging about would that be a problem? Would wiring up to EDIS8 be the same? And thinking logically we should be able to run waisted spark as with the Ford coils firing No's 1 & 6 COP's and so on...

Its just an idea but thoughts please.

Jeff

Its a good idea Jeff, i personally dont think it will have any advantage ,unless you can run the ignition fully sequential as well as the injection.

using COP will make an already busy engine bay a whole lot tighter,and i dont think the rubber insulators will seal on the plug half as well as the leads do

cheers Woody

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There are a selection of coil pack mounting positions shown in various threads.

I doubt any of those would be an issue when fitting in the 90.

I've recently mounted mine on a serpentine 3.9 which again needed to be a different position to those already documented.

Steve

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On mine, which has cruise control, there is a nice screw in bung with a 'nozzle' on it to take the vacuum feed off to the accumulator/vacuum thingy in the passenger side wing, this was ideal to take the vacuum feed off for the MS box -especially as the vac line going through the bulkhead to the brake pedal was MORE than long enough -anyone know the part number for this? Could make it easier for other MSers :)

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Right Gent's,

Sorry about this (please don't flame me, I have searched!) but can anybody help me?

Made a start squirting the RRC 3.5 efi today 'cause the bloody thing wouldn't start again, question is do I have an "Idle Stepper Motor" as refered to on Fridge's wiring diagram? :blush:

If I do what the hell does it look like?

Many thanks,

Mick.

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OK

The "Stepper" Motor is the autochoke on 3.9s

(and its an error here in that MS1 V3 won't run it - MS2 will but its tricky)

You wnat the PWM valve discussed in this thread elsewhere

3.5 Flapper doesn't have the steeper it has the EAV (extra Air Value) and this too

can be binned and the PWM installed (as it is neanderthal BL nastyness :lol: )

HTH

Nige

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Digressing ever so slightly, I'm using an external PIC circuit to control a 4 wire stepper from MS1. It interprets the PWM signal and steps the idle control accordingly. It works really well both on the 3.9 stepper and on the very similar stepper on my motor.

I've made a few of these now and have 3 more to make in the next couple of months - if I was to get a batch of PCBs made up professionally rather than my current one off UV system, would there be much interest in them or does the PWM valve make it unnecessary ?

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I have the PWM and its controls Tickover well - albiet needs a few improving tweaks

when I get a chance, does the stepper / can the stepper do this or is it just the posh autochoke ?

Nige

The controller converts the PWM signal from MS into a stepper position so 100% is fully open 0% is fully closed. No reason why it can't work with the closed loop idle from MS1 although the consensus seems to be that the code for that in MS1 isn't too good ? I've not tried closed loop with mine, I just use it as a glorified choke, I might give it a go if the MS code is something like.

I added a "fast idle" to the original code using a spare input on the PIC for when I'm winching or want a fast idle to get the batteries topped up quicker after a winch pull. I have a button on the dash that controls it and it just takes the pintle in a fixed number of steps from where it would be based on the PWM input. I'd have to modify the code slightly to get it to work with closed loop idle.

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The controller converts the PWM signal from MS into a stepper position so 100% is fully open 0% is fully closed. No reason why it can't work with the closed loop idle from MS1 although the consensus seems to be that the code for that in MS1 isn't too good ? I've not tried closed loop with mine, I just use it as a glorified choke, I might give it a go if the MS code is something like.

I added a "fast idle" to the original code using a spare input on the PIC for when I'm winching or want a fast idle to get the batteries topped up quicker after a winch pull. I have a button on the dash that controls it and it just takes the pintle in a fixed number of steps from where it would be based on the PWM input. I'd have to modify the code slightly to get it to work with closed loop idle.

Dave W I would be interested to know if it will work in closed loop as like many others I have tried to tweak the PWM settings to keep the revs up when winching and when the fans come in. It works but its a little too slow picking up the revs but once there up its fine.

Jeff

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Dave W I would be interested to know if it will work in closed loop as like many others I have tried to tweak the PWM settings to keep the revs up when winching and when the fans come in. It works but its a little too slow picking up the revs but once there up its fine.

The original design had a "load" input that worked in a similar way to the one the hotwire uses. When the input goes high or low (depending on how you configure the hardware) it would open up the idle valve a few steps for a short time and then let it fall back to it's PWM controlled position. That was how the OEM hotwire system copes with aircon coming on or an auto box being put into drive or reverse (it triggered off the start inhibit switch).

That works OK for when you have a sudden increase in load but if you look at the way most alternators deliver their power, the faster they are spinning the higher the output current. bearing that in mind I thought it would be useful to have a switch where I could force a fast idle both to keep the batteries topped up while winching and to recharge them after winching.

With the current programming, when it calculates how many steps open it needs to be based on the current PWM it then looks at the input and, if it's low, it adds a few more steps to the calculated position. To work with closed loop idle (which would otherwise reduce the PWM when the RPM rises, negating the increase) I'd need to add the steps from the current position calculated when the input first goes low and then stick with that figure, ignoring the PWM, until the input goes high again (fast idle turned off). It's only a few minutes work to make a change like that to the code.

I'll try the closed loop idle this weekend and see how well it works, if it works OK I'll modify the code for the fast idle button.

The circuit and code I am using is based on the work that masterx81 created and posted on the MSExtra forum.

http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=18971

I've done some optimisation of the code to suit my own needs and to make the stepper more reliable so that it doesn't miss steps but the basic concept and design is all his.

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Would it be just as easy to add an on/off solenoid valve to let air in, such as the one-wire idle-up valve as fitted to some RR's with air con?

If you put an inline switch to a Bosch PWM valve, and open circuit it, the valve will spring open by default, therefore raising revs to around 1800rpm, this would be easier still?

Nice and simple, planning on this mod, once I have everything else sorted.

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Would it be just as easy to add an on/off solenoid valve to let air in, such as the one-wire idle-up valve as fitted to some RR's with air con?

Not really, the code change took me about 10 mins and all I had to do "hardware" wise was add a switch and run a wire to the controller. If I wanted to do it "mechanically" i could have just added a hand throttle off a series motor TBH :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi all, I am hoping that someone can help as I am starting to pull my hair out and to be honest I dont have a great deal to start with! lol

I have been megasquirting my Landy 110 4.6 V8 Auto for what seams like forever but in reality is 6 months, it used to run quite nicely on the 4 barrel webber/Edelbrock but the intention was always to megasquirt having read Niges thread and the benefits of a fully programable fuel injection system.

So I collected a number of bits and pieces over the years and started putting it all together, I am running a 3.9 V8 plenium, injectors and modified injection loom from a range rover circa 1991. I have a transit 36-1 toothed wheel with a vr sensor, 2 ford coil packs, bosch pwm air valve. and am running the ms 1 code version 029v.

My ECU has 4 drivers in for direct coil pack control

After hours and hours of torment I can now get it to start but I am along way off runing properly!

Some help and advice required I am afraid, I can start it or I could (will get to that in a min) and it sounds as though the timing is abit off, sometimes it will kick when it cranks sometimes not, sometimes it will start and idle but normally you have to give quarter throttle to get it to pick up. It then will run sometimes doesn't sound bad, but others is coughing and spluttering through the inlet and exhaust, if you leave the throttle in this position or don't give it any it will run for a few seconds then peater out and stop. if your lucky it will just stop if not it will pop and bang as the coil packs give off one hell of a spark on switch off. Once a bit of warmth has got into things I did mange to get it to idle for approx 30 seconds on its own though very hunty and not overly clean. If you hold the revs at 2700-3000 it will run and sounds as though it is a little poppy on the exhaust.

That said I thought the air mixture was wrong so decided to recalibrate the tps on the laptop again and since doing that it now wont start! lol

So what have I done? Well after the initial trying to start it and not having the timing anywhere near right, tried to adjust in the spark settings but couldn't get close, I eventually found a paragraph in the ms extra manual that said that for the rover v8 the crank shaft toothed wheel should be set to tdc at 9 teeth after the missing tooth on the wheel and this was the settings I appeared to have put into my ECU Trig A =1, Trig A return = 5, Trig B =10, Trig B return = 15, Trig C=19, Trig C return = 24, Trig D =28, Trig D return = 33. In a sentence in the same section I did find that if you have the tdc set to 5 teeth after the missing tooth as per EDIS and mine there were some different settings which I changed too

Trig A =35, Trig B =8, Trig C=17, Trig D =26 also it said you had to change from trigger return to time based which I also did and set the cranking advance angle of 10degrees as directed.

I set the fixed angle to 10 degrees before tdc and then the trigger angle to 60degrees, I adjusted the cranking advance angle to -10 as timing was out and after changing this I then had number 1 spark plug on the timing gun flashing at 10 degrees before tdc. Changed fixed angle back to -10 to follow map. Landy starts but timing still doesn't appear to be right played with settings on cranking timing but still not right.

Laptop megatune guages on ignition show spark advance 1.3deg btdc, air fuel ratio 28, coolant temp, water temp and map all look ok. To me the air fuel ratio looks wrong, way too high. on cranking spark advance goes to about 10deg btdc, air fuel ratio still at 28, coolant temp and water etc. all remain about the same air inlet fluctuates slightly. at 2700-3000rpm cranking spark advance is about 27-30degrees and air fuel ratio is still at 28, coolant temp gradually rising, all other approx the same.

Thinking air fuel ratio looked wrong I decided to calibrate the tps again on the laptop, which I did, then of course the landy wouldn't start coughed but no go. At this point I had enough and haven't looked at it since.

I would say I have now got past the point of frustrated! lol landy has now been off the road for 6months and I would dearly love to use it again!

Any advice and help gratefully received.

Glenn

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I'm not familiar with how the internal spark control works but made a schoolboy error myself with EDIS which you should also check.

The system sparks A, B, C, D but because of the way I mounted the coils I had wired them incorrectly. It ran, just, but gave all the same symptoms you report popping and banging.

So the coils & cylinders work like this

A = 1 & 6

B = 5 & 8

C = 4 & 7

D = 2 & 3

If you looked straight into the connector on the Ford coil pack pin 1 is on the left and drives the coil on that side and vice versa.

Steve

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Todays update, many thanks to nige and steve for the info and advice.

I have checked the ignition side today from the plugs back to the coils then coils back to the plugs to make sure.

I have then checked the wires from coil back to the ecu. Cannot find anything wrong with them.

Checked the settings in the ECU for the spark and made sure it was as follows from the msextra manual

EDIS8 replacement - working on Rover V8

36-1 wheel aligned the same as EDIS8 (see EDIS)

Hand twisted pair cable from VR sensor to Megasquirt box routed well away from plug leads.

trigger angle=60

Timebased cranking and 10deg cranking angle.

trig A=35

trig B=8

trig C=17

trig D=26

Four VB921 to drive the coils and set LED17,LED18,LED19,output3 all as spark outputs.

Spark output "inverted"

Dwell control with 5ms cranking, 4ms running and a 0.1ms min discharge. Be sure to use code 025i6 or newer.

The only thing I could see in here was on my ecu I had 025style no option for a 025i6

Tried to start and kicking back as though timing too advanced or wrong plug sparking.

As ECU lid is off and earthed so that I was able to adjust the VR sensor pots previously I though I would see if the outputs on the db15 plug were wired correctly to the 4 drivers inside the ECU. Power was still on as plugged into laptop,I moved the wires for the 4 driver chips to make sure that they were all soldered on and no loose connections and then ECU went mad, fuel pump switching on and off every couple of seconds and laptop beeping, then after a min of this fuel pump on continuously but the fuel pump tab not lit up. ECU now wont communicate with the lap top! Have unplugged ECU to try to get to reset but not having any of it, cannot see any loose connection on any of the wires, no idea why it has gone potty.

who has the record for throwing a megasquirt ecu the farthest?

Glenn

P.S. I should have said in my original post Fridge and Nige have been of a great help in getting my setup this far.

update again

the wires that go from the driver chips route through a hole in the board then back through another hole and then soldered on to tabs ontop of the board, I would have though looking at the thickness these must be the signal wires. I have pushed these wires through a few few mms and they appeared to be either stuck to something on the back of the board or to themselves. Also the main fuse (2amp) had blown, replaced this then the ecu then did do the initial fuel pump prime but only does this occasionally but it does now start and the pump is running when the engine is, so not really sure whats happening with the prime sequence but we are now back to a land rover that sort of runs.

Anyone got any direct drive settings they are using that I could have to see what I am doing wrong?

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Sorry to interupt Glenn,

Gent's I'm still at wiring stage on mine :rolleyes: can anybody confirm the wiring details for the EAV please?

I'v had a good read but I'm not sure of the pin out for a two wire system.

Many thanks,

Mick.

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