Jump to content

** MegaSquirting a V8 - "Basics of How to" ... The A-Z Saga


Recommended Posts

Right, Ive got the truck up and running, Spent two weekends ranting around in the wood and I love it. The V8 and the MS have been faultless, many thanks to all that have helped . Only problem is, over 80% sensible road driving in High box and 20% enthusiastic off roading in low box I am averaging around 5 mpg. This wont give me a long enough range on a reasonable size fuel tank for the events I want to do so I need to look into it.

I will try and get some miles under my belt Data logging and try, with the help of the knowledgable people here, to improve the mapping ASAP, but that wont be for a couple of weeks and the only use the truck will be getting until then wont be suitable for such a task. I do however notice the light on the ECU for AE is triggered even with the lightest of presses on the throttle pedal (As FF suggested may be the case) so I assume this could be a bit over sensitive. Im going to have a bit of a go at trial and error adjustment (don't worry I have made a note of what it is now).

So can anyone post some of their settings so I can get a rough idea where it should be? I know it wont be a case of sticking the figures in and it will work as all engines vary but an idea of what sort of thing I should be seeing would be great.

Theres this one kindly posted by Tom for starters

post-1274-1243893258_thumb.png

Any more?

Many thanks.

Steve.

BTW, Its a std 3.9.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just looking at the AE Wizard page, Does the slider with MAP Vs TPS allow you to give it a mixture of inputs to decide AE as its title suggests? I thought this wasn't possible with MS1? Is it just in the software but not available?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just looking at the AE Wizard page, Does the slider with MAP Vs TPS allow you to give it a mixture of inputs to decide AE as its title suggests? I thought this wasn't possible with MS1? Is it just in the software but not available?

Yes - you can have a mix of both - but I am using TPS as the MAP is too laggy :):D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok

Acceleration Enrichment or "AE" as it is know by is the area I have now been studying for some months,

in all that time I have learnt a lot, and also learnt to unlearn stuff learnt earlier :lol:

The key things to 1st learn are :

  • Too Rich feels and behaves exactly the same as Too Lean
  • The best settings are those that both FEEL right
  • AND allows the engine when blipped to be crisp and fast on pickup
  • Too much often seems as if engine sluggish
  • Too little can give backfires, but erm so too can too rich.....

On the subject of AE thjere is a HUGE amount of 2 x types of things you need to be aware of.....

the 1st is TB (Total B*llox) sprouted by people arguing about minor issues blown out of a level

of sanity ie

"During a Nuclear Attack when making your last cup of tea should the milk be placed in before or after the tea" sort of nonsense,

The other is the overly geeky...all true, .....but more technical than 'real effects' in reality,

What you read it it is true .....but makes your brain melt..... and has no real major impact on AE tuning / noticeable results.

So what have I learnt ?

1st - AE is best left till last, one of the fine tune settings, more as to why later.

2nd - you can't just grab another V8 Rover AE table and pop it in to you MS and go Ooooo Fabby doooos :(

as AE is interlinked to a vast range of interdependant other settings - ie

3rd - A basic AE range of settings matched to the rest of the interpolated other settings (more later) will see

often a V8 run v well, fiddling with AE may get a small benefit, fiddling with spark and VE tables will in many cases

get a load more benifit, then, and only then fiddle with AE, but you need to know what you are doing ....I still am unsure of it

from a really comfortable point a view - and still even now some months in have only a basic understanding, it a complex area.

There are 4 types of AE enrichment -

  1. MAP based (where is takes the inputs from your MAP)
  2. TPS based where it instead takes TPS values
  3. A mixture of the 2 is also possible,
  4. and RPM Based

For your sanitys sake do NOT go RPM based, highly exotic, and from what I have read avioded in all cases but a very

few hugely knowledgeable gurus working on wildly exotic engines, or geeks who just have to try :lol:

Similarly the Mix of TPS vs MAP, stay away from this, the chances are that either MAP or TPS will serioulsy drain

your medicene cupboard of asprins, you'll struggle to get it spot of even with research and lots of trying, mix the

2 and the chances are you will over complicate AE on your MSQ and probably have a mess, or worse something

very wrong somewhere - so my 1st bit of advice is pick JUST ONE either MAP or TPS, but which one ?

I would say NOT MAP, Go TPS AE

I have played with both and can report purely my thoughts and findings and learnings, I could sprout on as to the whys and wherefores

(and poss be provenI am wrong) and if you think I am wrong then fine - you may well be right :lol: or wrong :lol: I don't really care

as I am trying to learn and understand more on AE than anything MS based at the moment, but I have come to end up using TPS

based over a early series of tests with MAP based logical (if poss flawed :P) reasons, hence the rest of this post will

be around TPS Based tuning vs MAP based, although much of it will be valid for either :

TPS Based

1st thing is if you do have a 'MSQ given' to you is to check the base settings are OK

Go to "RPM based ACCEL" and set to "Normal Based AE*^"

Thwen go to Page 4 AE settings and drag the slider to the far RHS for "TPS Based"....setting AE tuningfor TPS ONLY

Then go to ACcel Decel TriggerDOT

Check you have

TPSDot

Secs*^

Decay

0.0

Never or Above KPA set point (I have 70 KPA) - Try both and see what you think FEELS Better :)

Decay starts by adding the set amounts of AE on demandthe decreases it linearly to value at

accel value end time which should IMHO be set to 0.0 (well at the moment I do '''' :lol: )

If you need to change any change and then Burn to ECU :)

Then ensure you have calibrated the TPS :

Tools > Calibrate TPS >

Ignition on hit button get current and then store both high and low expecy 20 ish to 280+ as trhe range

On page 4 you can in real terms now ignore all the LHS settings - as these are for MAP based AE Tuning :)

Here is my Page 4 :

post-22-1243934850_thumb.jpg

This is from an early version of my Engine, and these settings I think were given to me via BBC (Ian) and a

combo of MS Manual reads, they work well, and I use these where asked as a base for most V8s.

However be very aware that these link into things like REQ Fuel, VE Table, WUE etc etc etc and thus

if you have vastly differing REQ FUEL VE etc these may not work so well, hence why I said they are interlinked

to my knowledge only 'Cranking' settings are exempted.

TPSDot Theshold v/s - This is the base rate where AE kicks in

Too high and not much will happen as it doesn't "AE" too Low a setting and you may on WOT get misfires backfires

or huge bogging of the V8 - yet as mentioned eariler it could equally be your spark / VE and no amount of AE messing will cure...

From the MS Tuning Manual set this between 0.5 and a maximum of 2, and suggested is 1 as a start,

I have played about muchly here, and am now at 0.8 vs original 0.781 and the other I note is 0.997

which is moving AE trigger point Higher in simple terms, I tweaked upwards for mine to compensate

for the lumpy silly camshaft, so wnated AE taken out of the equation until the cam settled,

hence why 0.781 is a good point for a V8 Rover lump.Similarly if the TPS Dot level of kicking in

is too low it can come on when you are not expecting it - say when crusiing along, or even at tickover

this then makes the engine hunt and lurch about, and most then look to VE, to fix ! stamp on the loud pedal

and it will seem flat, so people think AHHH need more AE - Wrong " - in so many ways :lol: (ask me how I know :P )

Note here is from memort 0.997 is a werid thing MS software does when you put 1 in, so this is a setting

in your AE which is a "Start with as a guide from MS MAnula" as opposed to much else - 0.997 looks as though

its special not - actually I think its a base setting !

Rate ms is throttle movment this couiples with Value ms is the additional fuel shoved in in both inmillisecs

Decel fuel amount at 100% means simply no cut at all, vs 5% would be reduce pulse width by 95% so not as you may read,

a complex setting one for the mo I still have at 100% - left out of AE tuning for the moment :( Getting the VE table dead on 1st is better

here, these 2 inperrelate...

So, to end with those sad enough to have read this will understand when I compare My ealry Page 4 with the one from Steve in the earlier post....and say

"Ooooo those numbers look very rich EXCEPT...." :blink:

and the except is :

Depends on his VE Table, REQFUEL setting and even spark table

(Change the spark setting and keep the VE can move the AFR for that changed combo....

So would be interested to know the other settings, if as I think they may be as mine then I fink

the reason your getting through the fuel may have been found :rofl:

Anyway, hoppe the above is of interest, as I said I am not at all convinced I am right on all of the above - it a nightmare area

but from some months of learning I think it mainly accuarte above, would be interested to see others V* settings on AE + REQ FUEL AND SPARK

so post away

Nige :)

PS : Oh and as mentioned a while back I have pruned the thread to keep more Techy / On Topic :)

Just remember some poor b*****d has got to read "A-Z to megasquirrt - A simple guide - some 14 pages now :rofl:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 4.2 is basically a 'longer stroke' 3.9

(3.9 is 94.04mm bore x 71.12 stroke vs 4.2 being 94.04mm bore x 77.0 mm stroke)

You'll need a 'Spark map' that reflects a lower 'Max' advance, and one that comes in at slightly differing Max RPM

3.9s Maximum of 34 degrees coming in full at WOT at around 3750-3850, where you'll need

more for a 4.2 a Maximum of 31 degrees at WOT but at around 3900-4000 RPM, then the advance on that as MAP reduces,

4.6s are different again 4.6s and bigger Max 28 Degrees at WOT 3750-4000 RPM.

All of the above would be around 'Standard' Engines, when you consider VE (Fuel) you'll find Autos produce a significnatly

different VE power table than the same combos in Manual. There a lot to tuning up MS, much can be learnt, and on many of the

V8s I have tweaked its amazing how forgiving it is as they can be horribly ou.....t but still run. :)

If you DIY it go SOFT on the spark advance, and slightly rich on the VE rather than lean,.... pistons aren't cheap :lol:

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, I'm just looking for a good basic point to run up some tuning. I had one that seemed okay but tickover was at 16 degrees, for some reason it had some 8 degrees trim on it and I think my sensor is set correct so I took that off and then it seemed less happy and I tried 12 and it was less happy and then I was messing around with everything so I thought it would be a good time to check I'm not on a road to a broken engine.

This is a 3.9 auto map. Is this safe enough ?

post-1231-1244016948_thumb.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW while your getting it to run right be safe and knock -1 or -2 off every cell from column 2500 upwards.

The highest 4 columns are not a great use of MS as they are much the same, the thing with a spark MAP i

s you need to use the 12 x 12 in as best a way you can, this isn';t really that good, so however much tuning

you do the last 4 columns won';t really be used well. The last column 6000 will never be used so is redundant really

- only a hugely tunned V8 will ever go near there so reduce this to 5400, and then alter the others to use the

higher end to tune better, but then ensure the spark is OK for the revised RPM setting, MS interpolates between rows / columns

Trim is only used to correct a wheel misaligned, so the very 1st thing to do is check re check and be 100% certain

exactly what the timing is on you wheel using a strobe light and setting the MS to fire at 10 degrees

only - otherwise you fiddling in the unknown.

Then check the VE and Fuel Reqs are at a suitable level, if there is anything major in the base setting engine

damage doesn't take long aviod WOT untill you sure the base levels are running right no pinking misfiring etc,

As it is the MAp is OK, but not clever, and has too much spark higher up klast 4 colums for a 4.2, better to run too

soft and too rich, than too much spark and too lean :(

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two quick questions..... if peeps have a minute to spare :)

Having the 'clicking fuel pump relay' issue when ignition is on and engine not running (and yes I've read the manual....) which says it's a configuration problem, and opening it in the mini-terminal doesn't seem to work, nor does doing similar in MegaTunix, which both are apparently able to fix it automatically -am I missing something here? I'm not getting resets of any kind.

Second.... If I turn the ignition on (say to play with some settings in Megatune or test other electrics etc) the next time I come to start the engine it takes a lot of cranking (maybe 10 seconds), and when it does start firing it is rough and uneven, and need to keep it going on the starter for maybe 5 seconds until it will respond to the loud pedal, and then runs normally. Is this likely to be a configuration problem, have I got some leaky injectors or another problem.....?

Many thanks,

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Two quick questions..... if peeps have a minute to spare :)

Having the 'clicking fuel pump relay' issue when ignition is on and engine not running (and yes I've read the manual....) which says it's a configuration problem, and opening it in the mini-terminal doesn't seem to work, nor does doing similar in MegaTunix, which both are apparently able to fix it automatically -am I missing something here? I'm not getting resets of any kind.

Second.... If I turn the ignition on (say to play with some settings in Megatune or test other electrics etc) the next time I come to start the engine it takes a lot of cranking (maybe 10 seconds), and when it does start firing it is rough and uneven, and need to keep it going on the starter for maybe 5 seconds until it will respond to the loud pedal, and then runs normally. Is this likely to be a configuration problem, have I got some leaky injectors or another problem.....?

Many thanks,

:)

Not my area of expertese here on this but its the ini file corrupted.

What version of MS are you on and what firmware and version number ?

Was this a problem that just appearred, or is this a file from "Someone" ?

Try saving the MS MSQ as a new name in the correct version, then reload and do you get error messages

otherwise its the ini file that is not happy and giving a confluict with what you have and what it thinks you have ?

just to double check you should have :

Open Communication > Mini Terminal.

Turn Megasquirt off ......then back on

You should then get a message pointing towards the setting(s) you have got wrong ??

Lastly disconnect the Laptop and serial lead - does it still do it I have known a damged lead

cause corruption to MSQ being svaed then a nightmare working out why it was corrupted :lol:

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cheers Nige for the quick reply,

Just been out and had a fiddle....

MS ECU is MS1 V3 as supplied by FF, Firmware version when connected to the ECU shows as MS1/Extra rev 029v, which I think is correct....

However when I go to File -> MSQ Info... it's showing all the configurations I have and listing the version as 029q, this doesn't sound correct, but I suppose it could be... I used FFs 'get you running' config to... erm.... get me running, and am running an evolution of this currently. Hmm, just re-downloaded FFs MSQ, opened it in wordpad and found that it too is showing 029q, so can I assume that this isn't the problem? In fact I just checked out the 'readme.txt' in my project folder and it says the file format hasn't changed, so pretty confident it's not the problem -cue you telling me it is :P

Tried the mini-terminal as you described again a few times and no error messages was returned... Megatunix does the same.

And yes it still does it with no lappy/serial lead connected....

Link to my current MSQ, settings.ini and custom.ini

^^^ Just in case anyone is willing to take a look/interested, any help much appreciated!

I suppose this could be contributing to my other problem, so I better get this fixed first I guess...

Thanks! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right............... after about 5 phone calls between myself and Nige, it's sorted, and I am one happy bunny :)

So after a couple of calls I was running the *correct* version of Megatune (2.25 P1, pre-configged for 029v) and a pukka 029v MSQ (a heavily tweaked and smoothed MSQ from my original), ignition on -still the problem exists.... :(

Few more phone calls later Nige suggests the fuel pressure relief valve "just go and nip the return line with the ignition on" ...... I did just that and the ticking slowed, I adjusted and tightened the mole grips and the ticking stopped completely :D

Time to replace the PRV then...

I am now cured of the "f***ing MegaSquirt, what's it up to *NOW*?" syndrome, and have realised there are still components of the car that can break down....

Huge thanks to Nige for offering to help, will chuck a few coins in the forum kitty.

TTFN...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Help help help!!!!!

My landy still isn't running properly, to be fair not even close, I have now disconnected the coil packs and put the distributor back on with HT leads from it. Landy starts better than it did with the coil packs and is lumpy as hell, smokes like a trooper and stinks of petrol.

I have pulled each plug lead off whilst running and to be fair it makes very little different, at one point I had 2 leads off and you would have to listen very carefully to tell any difference at all. I have pulled the plugs out and they are all black as the ace of spades number one cylinder being slightly wet but not flooded.

what do I do now?

what am I missing?

To date the worst thing i have done to my land rover is megasquirting it, I have spent hundreds of hours fighting it, I remember being able to go and turn the key and drive it before I started fitting megasquirt that was last November!

P****d off isn't the right word for it!

Glenn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are to a degree in a land where the few here who have squirted don't have the expertise

that they would have if you Had EDIS and MS1 V3 029V - go this route and you'll be sorted toot sweet

As Rog said (Istruggletogate11) the route you have gone is a nightmare, seriously - consider

going to EDIS and then your probs will vanish :) ? R&D Bill on EDIS was reportedly some $20 Million

...and few if any go wrong - and it will take a big pile of probs away from you

Ooooo and they are cheap :) , Fridge has a few left in his stock of stuff ??

Nige

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Nige,

Edis is something that i am certainly considering but I am not running direct coil packs or edis at the moment I have resorted back to just a plain old fashioned distributor so it should still run and the megasquirt should be just worrying about the fuel. So everyone elses experience at this point should be relevant.

I did ask Fridge a couple of weeks ago about edis modules and how easy to convert my ecu to edis but he didn't come back to me with a price.

At the moment it appears I have way too much fuel as the plugs are black and there is clouds of black smoke out of the exhaust or I have a problem with the injectors/pressure regulator or settings.

Glenn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Nige,

ECU is MS1 V3.57 running 029V

msq files are ones that you provided for 4.6 V8 Auto with max torque cam

3.9V8 injectors and plenium

modified 3.9V8 engine loom

guages show pritty much what i would expect, water temp, air temp, as I have said before fuel enrichment looks high at 28.

Glenn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Had the same symptoms as you when I first started the car on MS, and once about a week after...

Turns out I forgot to connect the MAP tube when re-fitting the ECU in the car :smackshead:

By 'eck it doesn't half smoke when it's run like that :hysterical:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After a couple of phone calls with nige the landy is now backup and running with the distributor, so injection side is ok, having reconnected the coil packs it's not so happy so must be a setting or wiring issue. If any one has the settings etc for direct coil drive that would be great as otherwise it will be converted to edis.

Glenn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moved a tad more to completeness :)

The dizzy.

Rog (Istruggle2gate11) kindly did me one from his batch run, ......and it dropped through my letter box :)

Basically people would be suprised just how many holes a V8 Dizzy has in the base of it, and as its not used for anything now other than the Oil Pump, the "BBC D*ldo Mod" is a good way to get rid of that area....

However it needed a top / cover to keep the water out, so with a lump of ali, some turning (actually a LOT of turning :lol:) on the lathe and a trip to a mate whos an engineer to finish it of "Bling n Tarty :P" here it is.

post-22-1187800945_thumb.jpg post-22-1187800961_thumb.jpg

Test fit............. clears the timing cover :)

Hopefully, it will keep the water out, and unsrewing the cap (metric super F fine :lol:) exposes the O ring and allows the unit to be take apart etc should the need arise

post-22-1187801086_thumb.jpg

More to come Ta Rog :)

Nige

Nige - how did you attach the collar to the dizzy in this?

I've been chopping a few up, but the caps I've made are just a push fit over 'O' rings a-la BBC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy