** MegaSquirting a V8 - "Basics of How to" ... The A-Z Saga

[V8 EFI]

Some more troubleshooting (shouting more likely ).

The following have i done:

- Changed ground further away from engine ending-up with more resets !.

- New clean 12V feed from battery instead of RRC's masterrelay, no succes.

- Tried measuring without TS connected, still a dropping voltage on fuelpump return.

- Measured resistance on spark leads (all between 6 and 12 KOhm) not that bad ?.

- Changed O2 heater ground away from the others, with no results.

Studied some more and thought about the ground wires connected to ms.

The ms i've bought was delivered with 4 black earth wires. I've connected these together with the TPS, coolant and air sensor's ground to the engineblock. All to gether 7 wires differently to the same spot on the engine.

The 4 black wires are on the following db37 pins; (i've opened the connector)

cable 1 pin 1 & 2

cable 2 pin 8 & 9

cable 3 pin 10 - 15

cable 4 pin 16 - 19

Looking at the V3 drawing (megamanual)

I've noticed the grounds from Coolant, Air and TPS are all connected to pin 19 instead of directly to the engineblock.

When heating up the resistance of the sensors will change and the resets disappear more or less, so ..

My question(s);

- Should i reroute the grounds for the sensors back to pin 19 ?.

- Is it needed to cut off pin 16,17,18 while they are connected together with pin 19 inside the connector ?.

I hope some grown up can point me at the right direction

Thanks Frederik.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Right

Not wishing to offend anyone here as I loove MS, there do seem to be an increasing number of threads which could be avoided IMVHO

This thread is designed / was designed to be a guide to fitting MS to a V8, most prob with a home made loom,

with a wiring diagram, and using MS 1 V3 029v. At the end of the day its not that difficult, FFS if I can do

all of the above then anyone can

However, this thread does seem to have things in it which I never envisaged, along the lines of :

1. I haven't used the above config, I have gone for MS 2.01. superwibble MSF but it won't run
   
2. I haven't read the threrad here, and am asking questioned covered else where
   
3. I have ignored the simple instructions as to what to use, I have plugged in a toaster instead of XX and it won't run right
   
4. I want to understand the most complex parts of tuning - but its doesn't run at all / run basically well at all
   
5. I post up that I have an issue, then I get responses but argue its not them - then later find it is
   
6. and if I had read the thread I would have known this
   

TBH for many of the above the answers are in the thread, yes its a long one, but up to me getting it running

and then how to tune, most after it are minor errors bits added and some useful info IF you need it, bear in mind

I did this without this thread and the info here, and it started first turn iof the key albeit with 1 wire to a coil pack wrong

and thats a common fault etc

By ALL means learn about MS and gain knowledge, but don't do a marathon before you can walk easily, as I said I am

not pointing fingers at anyone, I KNOW how annotying things are when they don't work - Oh don't I know

but try to follow the basic well trodden steps, don't stray off them until its wotking stable and sorted

don't go for other system "Cos they sound whizzier" they are not, but you are far more on your own

and there is little to be gained and a shed full of bvackup to be lost

I have said it before and will repeat, if you run MS1 V3 029v MsSnE and have a prob I and others

will help you until its sorted - and theres a few members here who will vouch for that - BUT run something else because

you thought it a great idea / your mate in the pub told you / you had it come to you in a dream = you are on your

own, moons ago I had so many bl**dy different Versions of firmware and software loaded various laptops to try to help

people that it turned into a nightmare, and so I stopped, they had in effect caused their own problems.

Use the firmware and software and ECU etc in this thread, do what is in here until it works and works well, don't jump

to complex tuning parts of the ecu before the basiscs are sorted, use the correct parts, and READ this thread and

the exellent linking thread (Not done by me but another enthusiast trying to help - and its damned good ) that I have

added at the start for shortcuts to basic stuff / questions / usefull parts.

I write this, as a forum member has driven me absolutely ********** nuts up to tonight, he has a MS1 with a werid variant,

and it hasn't run since he installed it he has rung me (I did offer) now over 7 months, nothing I have suggested has worked,

he was at the "I'm going to take it off" mode. He tried "Direct Coil" drivers Route 7 months ago - when everyone said DON't (Inc

Istruugle2gate11 who tried admirably - and went EDIS, and Fridge - who knows more than I prob ever will, and I think BBC too

said the same, again he's nobodys fool), but he had to try.... and failed. He sent the ECU away to have it changed to EDIS

and still no joy....

After much begging, and now increasingly and loudr I went round and had a look as fairly local,.. I arrived and he was talking

about the MSQ File and as to if he should have simultaneous or alternating injection, he has read this on MS forum, and that, and the other......

He was paying me ONLY if I got it to run.

I started at the basics, ....

Straight away he told that "Thats OK I have checked it dozens of times" ( - the Trigger wheel Position)

• Trigger wheel was 5 teeth out
  
• Coil packs were wired wrong way around
  
• VR Sesnor back to front
  
• Plug leads connected incorrectly
  
• Wrong MAT Sensor
  
• Earths didn't go back to ECU and then to Chassis.
  
• Main earth was thin and poor
  
• MSQ was messed about from what I gave him to a point I had no idea what he had done to it
  
• so relaoded firmware and MSQ to 029v MSQ I gave him initally 6 months ago
  
• Fitted new plugs
  

Asked him to turn the key ......

It fired, and ran...

I collected my £100 and left, ( no I won't name him )

There is a message in the above - Pleeeease ?

Sorry if this sounds a ran,t not meant to be, ... more a warning for everyones sanity

Mind you, the moneys nice

BUT, if he had LISTENED to me / others, Followed the info in here, used the info, not gone off on tangents, then

I wouldn;t have got £100, but, he would have been running 7 mionths ago

I told him tonight I would post this, ...he just laughed and said don't name me please

So I won't

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

@Nige - tell me about it, been there, done it, given up! I do wonder if it's worth splitting this topic into a couple of separate threads - MS install, MS troubleshooting, MS FAQ or similar? (assuming someone has the patience for that job!)

Frederick...

The ms i've bought was delivered with 4 black earth wires. I've connected these together with the TPS, coolant and air sensor's ground to the engineblock. All to gether 7 wires differently to the same spot on the engine.

If you read back through this thread and most of the other guides to MS (Eg the megamanual) you should ground the sensors to the ECU and then ground the ECU to GROUND, the engine block is not a great point for grounding, battery -ve or a good solid chassis ground is preferable.

I've noticed the grounds from Coolant, Air and TPS are all connected to pin 19 instead of directly to the engineblock.

What I just said then

- Should i reroute the grounds for the sensors back to pin 19 ?.

Any of the ground pins on the top row of the connector is fine, they are all internally connected. See my connector diagram:

- Is it needed to cut off pin 16,17,18 while they are connected together with pin 19 inside the connector ?.

That may have been lost in translation, but no you don't need to cut any pins off. Adding more ground wires for sensors on the spare ground pins is a reasonable idea though, keeping the main ground wires to give a good solid connection from ECU to ground.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Ian, you say 'that may not be a wiring issue' as if you have an idea of what it might be....?

I will try to explain........

A whole raft of issues ............ NB O2 sensors are OK when the mixture is 'sort of' OK .......... if its miles out either lean or rich then they often get upset and tell lies.................also too much authority can cause it to lead the ecu astray..........

Other issues include .......... burning too much oil will make them read permanently lean ............. too much fuel on acceleration enrichment can be enough to cool the element into a false reading (zero or there abouts)..........

With a WB you can see the actual AFR and tune based on an AFR table......... the WB knows exactly what the AFR is ........... its very quick to do ............. simples ......... a NB is only giving an indication of lean or rich, but it doesn’t know just how much lean or how much rich ......... you then need trial and error to bring it into its correct switching bandwidth ....... trial and error takes time and understanding ....... not so simples.........

The offer is still there ............... I can drop it off at Tim's place............you wont break it and its not important if you do............

[V8 EFI]

Thought for a moment Nige posting was all about me (could be !)

Splitting this topic mightbe helpfull it is getting quite big now, but better call it .....saga again.

For about me troubleshooting;

I've changed the grounds of the TPS and sensors and made it go offline immediately. It started me thinking, so i connected a spare coolant sensor away from engine block with no results. Did the same with the TPS (isolated from engine) and found the problem.

The old wires (red,green,yellow ones) from the TPS was getting some crossover interference from the HT leads.

This all made me very happy !.

Thanks a lot

[heath robinson]

Hi guys,

A quick question about the wiring diagrams.

The above pin layout has the pink wire going to pin 36, while the main crayola diagram has it go to 30. Which of these would be true if, say, I had a Fridge-built doobery (like the one arriving on Wednesday!!! )? And is there a convention on where the switch to change maps would be, or the fan switching line? Finally, is the IDM (Pin 2) of the EDIS connector used, and what for, if it is?

Ma Tuchly

Jake

[FridgeFreezer]

This should be correct for your ECU, and most people's:

IDM is ignition diagnostics, which some people use to drive a rev counter as it puts out a tach signal when the engine is running. However, it also puts out a signal when the engine isn't running (a very short pulse) so you may get strange behaviour from some gauges. It's documented on the MegaSquirt manual or if you google it.

The table switching & extra outputs are all documented on the MS-n-S-Extra manual, around here.

[V8 EFI]

Hi there,

After a lot of reading and tryouts i've managed to get the 'beast' out of my garage and running pretty wel by tuning it, thanks again for all the information!

I do have a question (one of many)

When starting from cold it hasitates a bit and after a bit extra gas (throttle) it picks-up and runs smoothly during AE and WE. Could it be that the old flapper (i'm still driving with a OMVL lpg vacuum vaporizer) is choking it ?.

Or do i have to search in the cranking pw and "extra fuel for cranking" options ? Otherwise by adding more and more fuel until it does without throttle interference?.

Adding more fuel in the very low map/rpm range is'nt usefull because its still not reading the VE map OK ?.

Another question about the TPS Floodclear(raw) setting in the More Cranking Stuff menu:

Is it only for Cranking ?, couse i'm driving an autobox and don't want it to come in before the kickdown does ( i do have to put my foot all the way down for that).

Many thanks, Frederik.

(It is really nice to fiddle around with megasuirt and get it better and better every day)

[Belgian_Dude]

Frederik,

Why does the LPG Vaporizer mean you need to keep the flapper?

TPS Floodclear is only to tell the engine, without it running, it should crank without squirting fuel - to be used after you've drowned or "flooded" it. Will not come into play with engine running.

Grtz

Quentin

[V8 EFI]

Frederik,

Why does the LPG Vaporizer mean you need to keep the flapper?

I know, its better to get rit of it right away but i have it only in place to support the mixer ring (tempory ofcoarse).

I'll try to converse it bit by bit, first petrol and now the lpg and at last ignition. If i do it to fast i might loose controle and dont know what is working and what not

Do you have any suggestions about my cranking settings?. Its picking up badly whithout a slight throttle interference, does this mean that i need to give it more air and weaken the mixture ?.

Or should i search in an other pw setting, maybe extra fuel in first start enrichment ? or even change the VE table ?

I've also planned a bosch IAC to install but dont now right know if i should solve this starting "problem" first or just leaved for what it is and install the IAC anyway.

I would like to get the basic right and then continue

Thanks Frederik

[Richard Lane]

Hi

I have cross posted this from the msefi site. I hope this is ok...

I am in the process of putting together a Megasquirt 1 Extra for my Land Rover.

I have been following the instructions as found in the documentation here (http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/build_manual.htm)

I am at the testing stage (number 24c) and I do not get 5volts beween pin 32 and pin 20. Instead I am getting about .5 volts.

I have checked the stim and it is pushing out power (via a 9volt battery) to the corre0ct pins in the DB plug.

The manual says to check the diodes are not the wrong way around and that the resistance on the power transistors with the mica insulation under them have >300 ohms. I have about 60 kohms.

What should I chase and test? I am not an electronics whizz but do have a bit of an idea.

Help

Rich

[FridgeFreezer]

Richard, try measuring the input & output to the voltage regulator U5.

Frederick,

You need to go back and read the manual I think, as you seem to be confused about what are the cranking, afterstart, and warmup phases, or at least are explaining your problem badly.

If it has trouble starting, you need to sort the cranking settings.

If it has trouble running just after you've started it, you need to look at afterstart.

If it has trouble running/driving when cold, you need to look at warmup.

Also bear in mind these enrichments are cumulative - ASE is added on top of warmup which is added to the base fuelling.

With no idle air valve it will probably be a bit reluctant to idle when cold anyway.

[Belgian_Dude]

With no idle air valve it will probably be a bit reluctant to idle when cold anyway.

For whatever it's worth, my experience confirms this, but I couldn't be bothered fitting the valve right now: start, keep the throttle on (1-3%) for about half a minute, then go ahead and enjoy the v8 rumble, talk to the person asking you what that aluminum box with wires & leds is for 2 minutes, then drive off with perfect idle the rest of the time ...

As for the LPG mixer ring, could you post a pic? It should fit the plenum, or in between flapper and plenum, but not be attached to the flapper ... Just to make really sure: you aren't confused with the vacuum or otherwise actuated flapper opening device are you? (the "thing" , various forms available, that pushes the flapper open while on LPG as the engine can't "suck it open") ?

Grtz

Q

[Richard Lane]

Richard, try measuring the input & output to the voltage regulator U5.

Thanks for the help. I had a look and found some suss looking solder flux on the board. I removed this and its all testing up good as gold. Thanks for the help!

Its good to know U5 is a voltage regulator...

Rich

[V8 EFI]

As for the LPG mixer ring, could you post a pic? It should fit the plenum, or in between flapper and plenum, but not be attached to the flapper ...

Mm, googeling ad ms1 / lpg i found a few pictures and know what you mean, but this is how i bought it. Its soon to be replaced by the blue air intake hose / AIC

Fridge, glad you didnt wrote RTFM !. i"ve read a lot in the megamanual its pretty much all there but i'm still at the first step of megasquirting (and its a long way !).

My problem right know is i need my car to be reliable on lpg for daily driving and i still have to wait for a few lpg parts before installing the rest.

I cant go any further right now, for example;

When tuning petrol for the lowest map reading the rpm goes up, restricting it mechanically by the trottle plate involves the lpg rpm as wel (dont want it to keep running for lpg by foot in front of traffic lights)

I realise now i do need the AIC inplace to get to it running nicely by it self. In the mean time, like Quentin said, i just have to adjust rpm by foot when its cold !.

So i just have to be more pattient wich gives me more time to read

[Richard Lane]

Hello squirters

I was wondering if people could post pics or send me pictures of their EDIS setups especially the trigger wheel and the distances from the timing cover and the size of the crank pulley. I have a P76 engine which is a Rover V8 with a larger capacity due to the longer stroke and taller deck height. My pulley has an crud/dirt/oil deflector on it and it looks like I will need to remove it.

I have looked through this thread and didn't notice much on this topic.

Rich

[heath robinson]

Hi all.

Quick grounding question. Is it better to route each sensor earth back to the ECU individually, or can they be combined in a sort of daisy-chain fashion where practical?

[TheRecklessEngineer]

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=15317&st=0&p=159950entry159950

All earths back to ECU, then directly to battery.

[FridgeFreezer]

Richard, does this help?

Heath - all sensor returns back to the ECU, then ECU very well grounded.

[Bowie69]

Richard,

Yes, you need to remove the crud shield...

*edit* quick browse, look what I found : http://forums.lr4x4....showtopic=14534

[heath robinson]

Back to the ECU individually then, ok. I was thinking of running one larger earth from the ECU up each side's harness, and then branching off from this to the sensors, I suppose that in the long run that's more complexity what with the extra joints etc.

[Richard Lane]

Richard, 

Yes, you need to remove the crud shield... 

*edit* quick browse, look what I found : http://forums.lr4x4....showtopic=14534

Fridge & Bowie cheers for your help on this. Being new to the Rover/Leyland V8 arena and the fact mine is different in some ways I like to try and clarify a few things. Hopefully I don't get a rock in my timing cover like Bullbar cowboy says he did. Yikes!

[V8 EFI]

Hello all,

To avoid the "wont stop" problem of my V8 i've wired the ms directly on the brown/orange wire of the original master relay and it worked quite well.. until now .

What i have done so far is:

built a new loom to injectors with a few relays in it, cut the brown/orange wire (original injector feed) on the master realy and connected it to the ms. Started reading about tuning etc etc and drove a view miles (km's) with succes.

Next thing i did was connecting the two vw/jetta coilpacks and checked the working of them while still running the old distributer. It worked and i removed the distributer and and started on the new coilpacks with succes.

After a view miles it started running bad however this problem is likely caused by a bad white wire to the master relay. Touching the wire made the fuel pump run again while the engine was'nt running so it should problemly reset the megasquirt for a short time.

However when i drove it home it would'nt stop directly, it kind of died slowly. I already disconnected the wires from the coil to the distributer and now disconnect the compleet coil (yes the old one)

But now it wont start at all ! at least it kindof starts and dies ride away. There is no smell of petrol and i have the feeling its only fed during cranking !,

So my question is, whats best to do with the wires to the old (removed) coil ?

Why cant the white wire to the original master relay not be used like it was in the original setup to feed the 4CU.

And if so what is the best place to get 12 volt wich is alive during cranking and running?.

Thanks in advance, Frederik.

[V8 EFI]

Right then, guess where all far away enjoying the sun !. Must be cause its awfully quite here .

Anyhow it gave me more time to find out what all the wires where about. I checked all the wiring and the configuration of the MS over and over again and found nothing bad.

It turned out to be that right after the moment i disconnected the old coil and cut out a few wires the startmotor was'nt getting all the current it needed. The powercable from the battery looked pretty good on the outside but was not OK at all !.

I certainly did not thought this to be possible but it was !. I changed a few earth wires as well and all is running good now

Time for me to start tuning and most of all ....... enjoying the Megasquirt

[tarmacshredder]

Hi All,

I am after some more help/advice on my landy, I did get it to run last Feb and did spend sometime in March trying to get the warmup cycle better each time I ran it but just didn't find time to get the lambda sensor welded in the exhaust, and couldn't use it as it was all over the place with the fueling.

I am now needing to use it, the fuel comsumption is savage and I don't like the way it runs, it sounds too far advanced sometimes and too far retarded at others.

This last weekend I have got the lambda in and wired up, first thing I thought was odd was megatune was showing 0.27 Volts this didn't change with the engine running but flickered between 0.25-0.27volts, so disconnected the lambda sensor and same reading, disconnected the wire input into the db37plug and still the same, the ego for the rear bank is reading 0 volts which is what I was expecting to see for the front bank, anyone got any ideas why I could have this and what to do/try?

Many thanks

Glenn