MS - High Tech - Running Fuel Flex E85 etc

[landybehr]

I am wondering if anyone has looked into using Flex Fuel with MS and the Rover V8. I know most of you will have LPG, but the conversion to FlexFuel looks much simpler (unless fuel pump and injectors are not up to the job) - I´d only need a sensor in the fuel line. I´ve no concrete idea (but should have before going E85 or LPG) of the costs of Ethanol in large piles, think it would be a nice idea to mix my own E85 .

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

edit: I´ve done some quick research Seems like Ford uses s/s fuel lines. Some recommend corrosion-resistant fuel tanks. Volvo mentions to have specially hardened valve seats and valves (I didn´t know there´s anything more you can do than hardenening them the way you do for lead-free petrol) and maybe some coating? of the cylinder head (and pistons?).

I´ve read that (not vehicle-specific info) you should take a Bosch fuel pump in case the OEM gives up. And there are certain materials (seals) that withstand ethanol.

[HoSS]

I am wondering if anyone has looked into using Flex Fuel with MS and the Rover V8. I know most of you will have LPG, but the conversion to FlexFuel looks much simpler (unless fuel pump and injectors are not up to the job) - I´d only need a sensor in the fuel line. I´ve no concrete idea (but should have before going E85 or LPG) of the costs of Ethanol in large piles, think it would be a nice idea to mix my own E85 .

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

edit: I´ve done some quick research Seems like Ford uses s/s fuel lines. Some recommend corrosion-resistant fuel tanks. Volvo mentions to have specially hardened valve seats and valves (I didn´t know there´s anything more you can do than hardenening them the way you do for lead-free petrol) and maybe some coating? of the cylinder head (and pistons?).

I´ve read that (not vehicle-specific info) you should take a Bosch fuel pump in case the OEM gives up. And there are certain materials (seals) that withstand ethanol.

It's an interesting idea, but not knowing all of the materials currently in my fuel system could withstand it, just gives too great a risk of leak/fire for me.

I think we need way more data on what are the reisitant materials, and what is currently present. But it seems that a whole fuel system overhaul may be the only way to be sure....

... and in some ways that is going to be more work than a LPG install.

[landybehr]

There is a list of vehicles running on E85. Unfortunately it seems to be in danish or swedish.

http://etanolbil.eu/bilar.xls

It seems like ehtanol has some effects on the hardware. I´ve come across a very detailed answer in one forum. This is a compilation:

- First, it is a solvent and will free debris that formerly settled down; very much like bio-diesel.

- Second, it has less lubricating properies than petrol.

- Third, it can lead to electrolytic corrosion in parts like the fuel pump (I didn´t understand that fully, partly due to lack of knowledge about these pumps. It´s been described like a galvanisation process).

- Fourth, it can remove these softening agents out of plastic items like fuel lines (not necessarily, depends on the material. One can immerge a piece of that plastic in Ethanol for half a year. If no deterioration is visible it may be good.

- Fifth, exhaust gas temperature is said to be generally higher (because the exhaust gas can carry less temperatur per volume so has to be higher to get the same amount of heat out). That leads to problems with the valves (due to expansion the valve play will reduce), but the Rover V8 with hydraulic tappets should be fine. Different hardened valve seats or similar are said to be myth.

- Sixth, the common rail can suffer from corrosion. Like fuel lines if made out of steel. That could block the tiny filter screen in the injector. The fuel tank probably will rust, not so plastic tanks.

- Seventh, fuel consumption is higher, up to 30%. Problem can be in warm up - because there is more fuel washing into the engine oil and diluting it. If doing many cold starts the problem is worse. If doing mainly long distance journeys the ethanol will evapourate at 78deg and vanish through the crankcase ventilation. Nothing that another oil or more regular changes couldn´t change.

- Eigth, the injector has to be capable of the higher flow. Real FlexFuelVehicles have injectors with higher flow rate. I think the 3.9 injectors could have enough capacity. But would have to be proved.

- Ninth, E20 can usually be driven without modification or problems.

- Tenth, the engine management has to take care of the different combustion of ethanol. Careful tuning can prevent damage (igniton is important). Ethanol has a higher octane rating, can give more power (??, I´ve read that the Indy car series were running on 100% ethanol; but wear is not prime consideration with race cars) and smoother running of the engine, that can lead you into full throttle driving where the tuning imperfections have most negative effect. Main danger is running lean with internal engine components overheating. These things mainly concern vehicles where people cannot influence the ECU, this does not count for Megasquirt.

Eleventh, not sure that counts. There were reports of fuel filters failing.

Sometimes people drive E85 with no modification and are happy with it and say they did not observe any negative effects. But that mainly is said before wear has had enough time to appear.

I think all points can be dealt with with reasonable effort. Only 6) is a real concern. The common rail cannot easily be changed. I think it IS possible, People have to make their own fuel rail for carburetor-equipped cars when turning to Megasquirt.

It's an interesting idea, but not knowing all of the materials currently in my fuel system could withstand it, just gives too great a risk of leak/fire for me.

I think we need way more data on what are the reisitant materials, and what is currently present. But it seems that a whole fuel system overhaul may be the only way to be sure....

... and in some ways that is going to be more work than a LPG install.

[FridgeFreezer]

I've looked at this too - the corrosion issues are partly down to the fact that ethanol absorbs water, so many parts that contain steel (injectors, rigid fuel lines, tanks) can corrode. Replacing fuel lines with something compatible is no major problem, fuel pump could be a big spend as could injectors. For tanks you could possibly use a plastic boat tank. Fuel rails can be made, one of the MegaSquirt suppliers sells extruded aluminium tube and fittings for making you own fuel rail. Tuning, as you say, is no problem

[HoSS]

Admin - Can i suggest spliting this ethanol discussion into a separate thread. Its going to be an interesting topic in it's own right i think.

Hoss

As if by Magic

Nige

[landybehr]

Hi,

I fully agree - injectors and pump, together with the FlexFuelSensor are the possibly greatest expense. Fuel lines are no problem. Still the modification costs would be condiderable less than for LPG - that will need 700->800pounds that equals to 1000-1200€ at least. I´ve been told of costs around 2000-2500€ in Germany where a MOT registration of the system will usually require the proof of a certified garage that the work is done correctly - which they give when they do the work.

I wonder what to do with the fuel pressure regulator. It is steel and I do not know if that spells for trouble, if rusts develops that will be washed into the tank and being filtered later; but may be it blocks the regulator ? Anyway, someone will know what the Ford-FFV´s in Brasilia or Saab in Sweden do in this matter. Aftermarket regulators will be 70-100€

Could be an opportunity to replace the pump to another place than inside the tank. Post-1990 RangeRovers may have a plastic tank that should be available s/h. Maybe galvanizing a steel tank helps. A fuel pump can cost up to 200€.

Injectors can be a bargain or expensive. Anything from 60$ to 300pounds seems to be possible. But I think first we need to know if the Rover injectors are appropriate or not.

Running costs - a litre E85 over here will be around 0.90€, a ltire LPG 0.65€ (rough estimation).

With extra fuel consumption of 30%, ok LPG might show an increase also, the running costs are higher.

Emissions are good for both fuel types. And if not made in SouthAmerica by cutting down the rain forest, ethanol is regarded as environmental friendly.

I would prefer the ethanol for it´s handling. Just one fuel tank, put any mixture in and MS will act accordingly. Minimal extra hardware - upgrading the existing hardware is something that vehicles of the age of my RangeClassic deserve anyway. Fuel lines are replacement parts after many years, not? Ethanol is easy to handle and store. No need to spoil the loadspace by a big LPG-tank.

There´s no such thing as a perfect solution. But I think Ethanol deserves more diskussion and development. So good idea to give it an own thread.

[FridgeFreezer]

There are quite a few cars now that are "E85 ready", I think it may be law somewhere like California. That means that those cars have suitable fuel pumps, regulators and injectors that one could presumably find 2nd hand with a bit of searching.

[gn3dr]

Read this thread about a guy here in Ireland who converted a Nissan 200SX.

http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=279342

[pugwash]

Does anyone know of a mpa of fuel stations that carry E85?

for the UK would it make more sense to stick with LPG in the short to medium term as currently UKplc does not seem to be embracing ethanol as a viable fossil fuel alternative?

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Here you go jim .....................

Like you say ..........lpg would be a more viable alternative as availability is better (not good, just better) ...............

As a Petrol head ................... I'll stick with gasoline

http://www.saabbiopower.co.uk/default.asp?docId=12458

BTW: I feel that a lot of the fears of using this stuff in a modern (ish) EFI vehicle are unfounded .................

Ian

[pugwash]

surely as petrolheads we should design our engines around lpg- a nice high octane number with a huge CR and no advance- hmm think of the lovely clean power!

what's the viability of distilling our own ethanol from crops then? more hassle than it's worth or possible with a bunsen bumer and a beeker?

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

jim,

As you know, both LPG and E85 have octane ratings that are far superior to gasoline.............. but thats about where the similarity ceases...........

Certainly LPG has a calorific value that is about 10% less than that of gasoline and that is with the stich value taken into account ............ also it burns a lot slower ........... thats why you need a significant ignition advance to get the full potential .............. but that doesn't alter the fact that its 10% less efficient........

Looking at E85 .................. I may be wrong, but this stuff appears o burn even slower than LPG, however, those with Turbo engines seem to be making good power, so i am not sure about its calorific value ? ................. reports seem to suggest that its maybe not quite so good in NA engines ..................... but of course, a lot will depend upon the how much effort was put into proper tuning of the engine and some reports are very sparse on this crucial detail.

I will certainly consider E85 when it become more readily available and at a price differential that makes it attractive............

I know this sounds maybe pompous and Cavalier, but I don't give a flying f**k about my personal carbon footprint .................. when the likes of the USA & China get off their high horses and do something positive, then I might sit up and take notice.

Ian

[Turbocharger]

Diesel – Calorific value 42.5 MJ/kg. Ideal AFR 14.5. Density 840kg/m3.

Petrol 98RON – Calorific value 43.5 MJ/kg. Ideal AFR 14.7. Density 750mg/m3.

Ethanol – Calorific value 26.8 MJ/kg. Ideal AFR 9. Density 790kg/m3.

LPG – Calorific value 26 MJ/kg. Ideal AFR 15.6. Density 540kg/m3.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Diesel – Calorific value 42.5 MJ/kg. Ideal AFR 14.5. Density 840kg/m3.

Petrol 98RON – Calorific value 43.5 MJ/kg. Ideal AFR 14.7. Density 750mg/m3.

Ethanol – Calorific value 26.8 MJ/kg. Ideal AFR 9. Density 790kg/m3.

LPG – Calorific value 26 MJ/kg. Ideal AFR 15.6. Density 540kg/m3.

and obviously the calorie value of BioSqueazle varies dependant on how many chips and bits of fish have been popped in and out of it

Nige

[gav-]

make the fuel rail lines out of s/s, i have seen the ethanol vapour rot through mild steel within a couple of weeks!

[V8 Freak]

Woss wrong with good ole Unleaded....

There is unlikely to be a viable network for E85 for years... Like LPG, engine manufacturers are not all committed to it so we are un-likely to see it in common network distritbution for a long time.....

Like BBC said a few messages back, we won't make a gnats difference while China is opening up 5 coal fired power stations per week!

We'd all be better off re-cycling to minimise landfill in Blighty (More room for off-road venues) keeping our countryside somewhat natural and wait til the new poluters of the modern world are in a position to be as riteous as us and reign back their carbon emissions....

(I'd be happier to consider doing more if the USA actually played in this game at all... Make agreements for 2020 and then promptly do nothing and even withdraw former commitments.... Yeah... (Oh my bad.. It was an election year then wasn't it... Err.. Votes or the planet...)

Neil

[Kim Horsevad]

There is a list of vehicles running on E85. Unfortunately it seems to be in danish or swedish.

http://etanolbil.eu/bilar.xls

( ... )

It is indeed swedish

If you need any of it translated to english, then post it here. Although I am from Denmark, the two languages are pretty similar.

[gn3dr]

Never mind the enviro BS (sure it's all a great swindle anyway). I was interested in the fact you could get more power from E85. Of course it wouldn't hurt that to the green heads, a vehicle running E85 appears to be saving the planet....

Woss wrong with good ole Unleaded....

There is unlikely to be a viable network for E85 for years... Like LPG, engine manufacturers are not all committed to it so we are un-likely to see it in common network distritbution for a long time.....

Like BBC said a few messages back, we won't make a gnats difference while China is opening up 5 coal fired power stations per week!

We'd all be better off re-cycling to minimise landfill in Blighty (More room for off-road venues) keeping our countryside somewhat natural and wait til the new poluters of the modern world are in a position to be as riteous as us and reign back their carbon emissions....

(I'd be happier to consider doing more if the USA actually played in this game at all... Make agreements for 2020 and then promptly do nothing and even withdraw former commitments.... Yeah... (Oh my bad.. It was an election year then wasn't it... Err.. Votes or the planet...)

Neil

[FridgeFreezer]

Not to mention you can brew your own ethanol

[landybehr]

And in case you run out of fuel you can go and utilize your stock of aftershave lotion and carry on

I wouldn´t mind to order ethanol the way one does with oil for the central heating of the house.

You need to have 850l ethanol and the sum of 8 jerry cans together and have enough fuel for 5000km´s.

With my average driving that will get me going up to 5 months. A tank of about 1x1x1metre will store that.

Not so sure about the legal background though ..

Anyway. If I´m right we´d have to (presumed we start with an Efi V8 and Megasquirt) :

1) carry on with the fuel pump as long as it takes, then be prepared to change it

2) replace the fuel lines with s/s pipe, easy enough.

3) drop in a flexibleFuelSensor between fuel filter and fuel rail. Without, I think, there is too little flexibility and security in use. Megasquirt can deal with these sensors. If one costs just as much as 50$ then no argument against.

4) replace the fuel rail with a self made s/s one. No so easy.

5) Try to go on with the injectors that come with the engine

6) preferably install exhaust gas temperature sensor to gain safety while tuning.

7) have the fuel tank galvanised (if that is compatible with ethanol) or get a plastic tank.

8) no one (but me) appears to have ever mentioned the fuel pressure regulartor. I conclude then, that this part is non-critical in use with ethanol. So well keep it .. and hope it works forever, because changing it in a Range Classic is probably the worst job, second only to changing the heater-core.

Different fuel rails and injectors are possible to get, make and to install - see http://www.extraefi.co.uk/cobra/accobra.htm and go to "300bhp".

I really wonder why it is gas that is promoted and supported by governments. IIRC gas is of similiar source as petrol. And contributes to global warmin just as much as petrol - if the studies about this topic are serious, and there are voices that those who first released the studies which caused worries of the heat catastrophy have neglected some important historic data with which the prognosis of the temperatures to come would be much more moderate. However, we´ve had no real snow for many years now so sth. has happened. Ethanol is CO2-neutral, supports local economy/farmers, to my cerebellum that sound better. If we get more power from the engines and with no trade off in emissions (may be even run clean/-er), so why not.

[landybehr]

There is another forum to watch.

http://e85forum.com/topic-1-0-0.html

[landybehr]

Hi,

just not to let this interesting stuff die ..

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.p...p;highlight=e85

have a look. There are some links on the following pages which yield some nice text or pics (in one case a report about disassembly of a standard enging run on E85 for a considerable mileage).