blue band tube?

[Bobtail-Jay]

hi all i want to build a cage for my bobtail and was just woundering if blue band pipe is ok i will not be doing any competing in it ,it will just be for p+p days ?

does it bend easy what sort of bender will i need?

and whats good places to get it from?

and what sort of price am i looking to pay i see some one on here said it was £4.50 a metre last year some time?

cheers jay

[Rizla 1]

Blue band is MSA approved -

[Les Henson]

I bought 20-metres of blue band (BS EN 10255) - also referred to as gas pipe.

Safe/recommended/approved for roll cages.

I also bought a Sealey 10-ton pipe bender.

What you buy to bend it with is the problem - some are real rubbish (mostly the formers), which kink, flatten to some extent, or otherwise damage the pipe.

Whatever you do - don't use scaffold poles!

Les.

[zim]

without spending a lot of money on a decent bender you'll find it difficult.

the normal clarke jobbies aren't up to scratch.

i've got a full cage & tray made out of cds and it's the best money i've spent i got some 1 1/4" blue band for other jobs which i bent fine, but the 2" (well 48mm) stuff i battled with.

G

[Les Henson]

made out of cds

ABBA, Kylie, Charlotte Church, Male voice choir?

Les

[Paul Wightman]

ABBA, Kylie, Charlotte Church, Male voice choir?

Les

Careful Les, you might be accused of humor!

[Bobtail-Jay]

ok will 48.3 with 3mm wall seemed tube be ok from a steel wholesales? i wont be competing jst p+p days ?

[Ian M]

Blue band is MSA approved -

where does it says this under roll cage material spec? i cant find it in my blue book?

[Rizla 1]

2008 book - page248 - section 301

[Ian M]

thats for spaceframes?

the specs for roll cage material is on page 155 and conts over on 156, it states cold drawn steel (CDS)! blue band is seamed and doesnt have a high enough yield strength!

if you only doing pay and play days then its fine, however if or when winch challenges go MSA it wouldnt pass scruiteneering!

[Rizla 1]

Trust me I'm right as an ex national B - msa scrutineer

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

^^^^

He's right trust him (well, you won't trust me )

BB Is approved,

look under the tubes sizes options and wall thickness etc, it says something like BS1387

it does not say "Blue Band Red Band" as these are more names its known

as I think rather than as BS1387 which is the approved code for BB RB

I can't look it up in my MSA Blue Book as it has been loaned to a certain Forumeer

Nige

[Diff]

The MSA covers roll cage structures for all forms of motorsport. Blue Band and Red band IS suitable for cross country vehicles under the MSA regulations.

The AWDC is the largest national off road club and uses the MSA blue book as the basis for its technical regulations If you build your roll cage to the AWDC tech regs, it will be suitable. Here are the AWDCs roll cage requirements for 'safari' competitions (speed events) and compliance with these regs will give you a very strong and safe cage, suitable for trials, safaris and challenge events:

9.19 Roll over bars/cages

Aluminium alloy roll over bars and roll cages

are banned in all forms of motorsport where a

roll cage is required to be fitted. Full roll cages

as per drawing 2 below are mandatory in all

classes.

a. General Considerations

i. The basic purpose of the roll over bar is to

protect the driver/passenger if the vehicle turns

over or is involved in a serious accident. This

purpose should not be forgotten, and in consideration

of this, all roll bars and roll cages

should be built to the following RAC specifications,

as detailed in Paragraph 9.19.b (below)

or to an approved Cross Country Vehicle and

Four Wheel Drive design, which should in any

case incorporate many of the provisions

detailed therein.

ii. The roll over bar/cage must be designed to

withstand compression forces resulting from

the weight of the vehicle coming down on the

roll bar/cage structure, and to take fore and aft

loads resulting from the vehicle skidding along

the ground on its roll structure.

iii. All classes must have a full roll cage with

two rear facing braces and a cross brace situated

either within the main rear hoop or as close

as possible to it as in Drawing 1 below.

b. Fabrication

i. The main hoops and rear braces must connect

direct to the chassis by either welding or

bolting. One continuous length of tubing must

be used for the hoop member with smooth

continuous bends and no evidence of crimping

or wall failure.

ii. All welding must be of the highest quality

with full penetration. Wherever possible gas

shielded arc welding should be used.

iii. For space frame vehicles, it is important that

the roll bar structure is attached in such a way

as to spread the load over a wide area. The roll

bar should be designed as an extension of the

frame.

iv. For monocoque vehicles, consideration

should be given to using a 360 degree hoop

completely around the inside of the vehicle,

thus substituting for a frame.

v. Braces should be of the same size tubing as

used for the main structure, their fixing should

be located as near as possible to the top of the

roll bar, and in any case, at a minimum of three

quarters of the height of the roll bar.

vi. The mounting plates of the roll bar braces to

the chassis must be of steel plate of minimum

thickness 3mm, welded, riveted or bolted onto

the chassis. The total surface area of each plate

should be not less than 120sq cm of which at

least one third connects with a chassis vertical

member. The chassis outrigger to carry the roll

bar mounting must be a minimum of 75mm x

50mm x 3mm box section.

vii. The mounting of the main roll bar hoop(s)

must be secured with at least three high tensile

steel bolts and nuts (either hexagonal headed

or cap head bolts of minimum diameter 8

mm/0.315 in). The attachment plate to the roll

bar braces must be of the same thickness as

the wall of the tube. When the roll bar rests on

a box member of the latter, it must be locally

reinforced by a structure constituted of either

welded bolt heads or welded tubing ends.

viii. Removable connections used in roll bar

design should conform to the recommendations

within the MSA blue book.

ix. Bolts and nuts used should be of highest

quality steel (preferably aircraft standards) and

be of sufficient minimum diameter according to

the number used. Square head bolts and nuts

are prohibited.

c. Closed Vehicles - as a general rule, the safety

roll over bar structure must be made of two

hoops, one behind the front seats and the other

following the windscreen pillars (Refer to current

MSA yearbook for full details of all drawings).

The structure must be constructed in

such a way as not to obstruct access to the

front seats and not encroach upon the

driver/passenger space. It may encroach upon

the rear passenger space. The main hoops

must be placed as near as possible to the roof.

It is permissible to mount a longitudinal support

at door level providing it forms part of the

structure and is of similar tube dimensions. It

may be welded in or located with approved

couplings. It must not be higher than one third

of the door height above the sill and angled at

more than 5 degrees with the horizontal.

d. Open Vehicles - to the same specifications as

Closed Vehicles, except the main hoop must be

symmetrical about the longitudinal centre line

of the car and complying with current MSA

drawings.

e. Other Considerations

i. An effective roll over bar must be fitted of a

height not less than 50mm at its top edge

above the helmet of the normally seated driver.

It must be wider than the driver’s shoulders at

that height. It must be constructed of steel tubing

of minimum 44.30mm diameter with a minimum

wall thickness of 3.2mm. It should have

a hole of 6mm drilled in the underside for

checking the tube thickness. It should have the

top bar straight or curved, but not tubes meeting

in an inverted ‘V’. It must be effectively

braced to a structural member.

ii. Closed vehicles the main roll over bar hoop

must be placed as near to the roof as possible.

iii. Non-standard vehicles are advised to fit a

safety roll over bar to the following minimum

requirements: minimum height 710mm from

the rear of the uncompressed seat cushion, of

minimum flat width 380mm running into radius

corners and affording driver and passenger

equal protection. It must be mounted to a

structural member with front mountings not

less than the cockpit width and braced rearward.

f. Diagonal Struts - these should be fitted such

that the upper forward joint is on the driver’s

side of the vehicle to add further support in the

area of the driver’s head.

g. Materials - (All dimensions represent minimum

requirements.) Tube Specification: Cold

drawn seamless carbon steel, minimum yield

strength 350 N/sq.mm. An alternative material

is BS1387 medium weight blue band, dimensions

being 44.30 mm x 3.2mm for vehicles up

to 1000kg or 48.00mm x 3.2mm for vehicles

exceeding 1000kg. All diameters are outside

diameters. In all groups recognized manufacturers

may utilize a roll over bar of free conception

as regards material and tube thickness

providing it is able to withstand three simultaneously

applied loads:1.5 w lateral5.5 w fore

and aft 7.5 w vertical w = weight of vehicle plus

75 kg. Roll over bars of this type must be supported

by a duly signed and completed Safety

Roll Bar Certificate. The roll bar manufacturer

must be registered with the MSA Ltd. Titanium

is prohibited.

h. Roof – all vehicles must be fitted with a solid

roof panel. Specification for roof is a panel

which is sufficiently strong enough to protect

the occupants in the event of a rollover. The

panel must cover all occupants adequately. An

MSA scrutineer has the final decision as to

what is sufficient. When fitted to the roll cage,

the panel should not be riveted into the tubing,

but to a welded on flange.

You can find these regs on the AWDC web site.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Diff

[Ian M]

you can go on forever opening cans of worms with this topic!

what gets me is cds needs to have a minimum yeild strengh of 350, however bs1387, (which does not exist anymore as bs (british standards) has been superceeded by european standards) only has a yeild strength of 180-190.

strange!

[Boothy]

If you want successfully bend "blue band" with a Clarke bender then insist on buying British Chorus steel, it resists kinking a bit more than our imported cheap stuff, but pays for itself in wastage and strength.

The boys who fit this stuff for a living (heating systems etc) who buy from Stockports "Booles Tools" will only use imported pipe for straights but when they are bending, they use the Chorus stuff (I know it's owned by Indians but they have apparently not lessenend the quality) and they insist that is the most cost effective way.

I hope that may help or explains things.