G wagon axles

[RangeyRover]

I have a pair of g wagon axles to go under a range rover, which have already been converted for the fitment.

The front axles has been flipped and the pinion bearing has cooked.

I have the bearing numbers but the oil seals part numbers are escaping me.

Can anyone help with part numbers 2,3,4,5,6,7 in the picture below

The axles are from a 300GD but I do not have the chassis number.

[andyb]

Join http://www.gwoa.co.uk and ask there. Always been helpful to me.

[team gunit]

I have a pair of g wagon axles to go under a range rover, which have already been converted for the fitment.

The front axles has been flipped and the pinion bearing has cooked.

I have the bearing numbers but the oil seals part numbers are escaping me.

Can anyone help with part numbers 2,3,4,5,6,7 in the picture below

The axles are from a 300GD but I do not have the chassis number.

You should have the chassis number i gave you the plate with it on

can you give me your number as im interested in mega squirt on V8

Thanks Andy (team gunit)

[88 inch of pure pleasure]

dont you have a local bearing and seal stockist pop them down and they should be able to match you a set up

[RangeyRover]

dont you have a local bearing and seal stockist pop them down and they should be able to match you a set up

Thanks,

Actually you're right but the seal had self destructed, and I needed the numbers. As is I have found the chassis plate again, finding the parts has become easy, and dirty diesel pm'ed me a chassis number to get going with. Thanks for all the help.

Andy, you have PM.

RR

[bill van snorkle]

I know you asked the question on pirate about flame hardening the dog clutch teeth on your difflocks.The photos weren,t too clear for me.Are the sides of the teeth tapered all the way down? If so the clutches will slip whether you re harden them or not.

Also the pinion appears tiny on the photo you posted, and even though it is a hypoid it would be doubtful that the crownwheel and Pinion would be significantly stronger than the rangerover 3.54:1 set. If you got the already converted axles very cheap and are doing a very low budget build it might be worthwhile, otherwise you would have saved yourself a world of pain by fitted Toyota centres to your original RR housings, or even Arb's to the RR diffs. In the 1980's the Australian army tested LR 110's against Gwagons and Jeeps to determin which brand would comprise the next fleet of front line 4x4's.The G apparently suffered numerous axle related failures and was eliminated from the competition.

Bill.

[forkrentfitter]

I know you asked the question on pirate about flame hardening the dog clutch teeth on your difflocks.The photos weren,t too clear for me.Are the sides of the teeth tapered all the way down? If so the clutches will slip whether you re harden them or not.

Also the pinion appears tiny on the photo you posted, and even though it is a hypoid it would be doubtful that the crownwheel and Pinion would be significantly stronger than the rangerover 3.54:1 set. If you got the already converted axles very cheap and are doing a very low budget build it might be worthwhile, otherwise you would have saved yourself a world of pain by fitted Toyota centres to your original RR housings, or even Arb's to the RR diffs. In the 1980's the Australian army tested LR 110's against Gwagons and Jeeps to determin which brand would comprise the next fleet of front line 4x4's.The G apparently suffered numerous axle related failures and was eliminated from the competition.

Bill.

bill can you elaberate on using toyota centers in rr axles please,regards chris.

[callum]

http://www.rovertracks.com/products/driveline.html or you can go the jack mcnamara route http://www.mcnamaradiffs.com.au/hypoid1.html which is more expensive, but designed to be a straight fit.

[RangeyRover]

I know you asked the question on pirate about flame hardening the dog clutch teeth on your difflocks.The photos weren,t too clear for me.Are the sides of the teeth tapered all the way down? If so the clutches will slip whether you re harden them or not.

Also the pinion appears tiny on the photo you posted, and even though it is a hypoid it would be doubtful that the crownwheel and Pinion would be significantly stronger than the rangerover 3.54:1 set. If you got the already converted axles very cheap and are doing a very low budget build it might be worthwhile, otherwise you would have saved yourself a world of pain by fitted Toyota centres to your original RR housings, or even Arb's to the RR diffs. In the 1980's the Australian army tested LR 110's against Gwagons and Jeeps to determin which brand would comprise the next fleet of front line 4x4's.The G apparently suffered numerous axle related failures and was eliminated from the competition.

Bill.

Bill,

The side of the teeth aren't intentionally tapered they have been mashed that way during engagement. The plan is to reshape them back to flats, and then harden.

As for the ringgear, the hypoid should be worth the effort? Otherwise why use the toyota stuff? It's no bigger than rover just a better design, as you have said yourself before.

The diff centre is 4 pin and is I believe the same diff used in sprinters, which don't go breaking all the time and should hopefully be a source of relatively cheap 2nd hand parts. You will recall me asking whether transit diffs are the ford 8.8. which no one really knows but the housings look similar to me on the twin wheel setups.

The real point is that there are limited options for strong axles around the world without big coin. The front is a real problem, as strong stuff with swivel housings are unobtainium.

A great solution would be transit twin wheel axles shortened for the offset and a manufactured swivel housing for the front to adapt a transit rear diff. Light commercial vehicle axles seem to me to be the way ahead for 4x4 on a budget.

I think the point of what I am doing is a budget build and I would accept that others have done stuff with toyota diffs that does work.

An ashcroft axle set is

£515 x2 for diffs

£425 for cv's

£245 for front shafts

£90 x 2 for drive flanges

£260 rear shafts

I make that £2140 for a set

I cant afford it.

Toyota stuff is not as readily available here in the UK as Aus, and is expensive for lockers. I personally think the best thing to do in the UK is to throw toyota 80 axles under complete with just fabrication to make it fit the rover chassis.

I was offered the merc axles for less than the price of an ARB, which I was considering so I bought them. I then got sent to Aus for 6 weeks last year by work and saw the stuff going on over there. Brought back as much lightweight ARB kit I could.....

So I am now building them up to have a go. Everything is stronger it seems to me than rover. Hypoid diff, larger half shafts, stronger cv's, lockers as standard.

I will keep posting. If I am wrong then others can learn from me and not go down this route.

The reason I have some confidence is I have seen these be effective on this

and this and this

So I have some experience (from friends) with them and they seem to be good. All are in standard trim.I will keep posting. If I am wrong, about these axles, then others can learn from me and not go down this route.

Regards

RR

[bill van snorkle]

RR.I grant you that hypoid is appreciably stronger than spiral bevel when comparing similar ratios and ring gear diameters, but you are going from an 8 1/2'' dia ring gear down to 8'' and from a relatively strong 3.54;1 ratio down to a relatively weaker lower ratio, regardless of design, so IMO the strength gains of having hypoid are neutralised somewhat. I do understand your budget considerations though as I am a bit of a pauper myself.

Some years ago I did use cut down dual wheel transit diffs with Landrover ends and homegrown sliding axle difflocks.These were very good although not unbreakable, with slightly higher ground clearance than Rover diffs.The design owes nothing to the Ford 8.8'' though, and I beleive, based on the boxes that the spare parts came in that they are made in Germany .Salisburies are definately stronger though.

I have never pulled a G wagon front axle apart, but believe that the CV joints are not fully floating and support the vehicles weight and hold the wheel on ? if so that would probably account for the failures I've read about.

bill.

[RangeyRover]

As usual you are right. But I have never broken a the ring gear on a rover until I had diff failure first. I've bust 4 diffs with a relatively modest right foot and an asthmatic 3.9. One epic moment both at once...

The g diffs are at least 4 pin and locked as standard, so 2 advantages from my normal failure mode.

I remember reading an epic argument with you and someone else on pirate about fully floating. I'm not qualified to argue with you on the point. I've not had to pull the wheel bearings apart yet. (I've not got them under the truck yet....)

Not quite a pauper but £2000 is ouch. The truck cost £600.... I would have bought whole LC 80 axles long before I spent that.

I would really like someone to spell out, completely, the toy diff conversion for rover at the front. and the back at the drive flange for that matter. Keith at rovertracks is recommended by everyone, and I can see why as he has the operation sorted, but the knowledge came from the 4x4 community I think, but I can't find the full deal.

Light commercial axles still seem like the option for me, but grafting on LR ends is unattractive really as you are still left with expensive cv's to buy. Ford explorers have the 8.8 in, but only a rear axle. Might have to try for a couple of them and modify them for the front if this fails. Or buy an old bronco....

PS might have to go for the explorers early cos dave ashcrofts new axles use the 8.8 don't they?

[will_warne]

As usual you are right. But I have never broken a the ring gear on a rover until I had diff failure first. I've bust 4 diffs with a relatively modest right foot and an asthmatic 3.9. One epic moment both at once...

The g diffs are at least 4 pin and locked as standard, so 2 advantages from my normal failure mode.

I remember reading an epic argument with you and someone else on pirate about fully floating. I'm not qualified to argue with you on the point. I've not had to pull the wheel bearings apart yet. (I've not got them under the truck yet....)

Not quite a pauper but £2000 is ouch. The truck cost £600.... I would have bought whole LC 80 axles long before I spent that.

I would really like someone to spell out, completely, the toy diff conversion for rover at the front. and the back at the drive flange for that matter. Keith at rovertracks is recommended by everyone, and I can see why as he has the operation sorted, but the knowledge came from the 4x4 community I think, but I can't find the full deal.

Light commercial axles still seem like the option for me, but grafting on LR ends is unattractive really as you are still left with expensive cv's to buy. Ford explorers have the 8.8 in, but only a rear axle. Might have to try for a couple of them and modify them for the front if this fails. Or buy an old bronco....

PS might have to go for the explorers early cos dave ashcrofts new axles use the 8.8 don't they?

The Ford 8.8 and 9 inch are very differant beasts and should not be confused. The 8.8 isn't that strong, the 9 (if done right) is VERY strong. Ashcroft use a custom, high pinion, version of the Ford 9" design.

[RangeyRover]

The Ford 8.8 and 9 inch are very differant beasts and should not be confused. The 8.8 isn't that strong, the 9 (if done right) is VERY strong. Ashcroft use a custom, high pinion, version of the Ford 9" design.

Every day a school day. Didn't know that, thanks will.

[dirtydiesel]

RR.I grant you that hypoid is appreciably stronger than spiral bevel when comparing similar ratios and ring gear diameters, but you are going from an 8 1/2'' dia ring gear down to 8'' and from a relatively strong 3.54;1 ratio down to a relatively weaker lower ratio, regardless of design, so IMO the strength gains of having hypoid are neutralised somewhat. I do understand your budget considerations though as I am a bit of a pauper myself.

To be fair though Bill, the merc ring gears are over 2" thick and made by engineers not accountants.

And i've used them hard and never broke a ring gear, it's allways been the front cv's that have failed on me.

I have never pulled a G wagon front axle apart, but believe that the CV joints are not fully floating and support the vehicles weight and hold the wheel on ? if so that would probably account for the failures I've read about.

bill.

The front cv's do hold the vehicle weight and hold the wheel bearing together, but they fail mostly on cage cracking up.

we've attributed this to the amount of steering angle on them 34degrees (i think) and the outer bell flexing.

we managed a partial cure by banding the bell and restricting the steering lock a little, but we still went on to break more cv's some even with the wheels straigh ahead!

we had a set of stub shafts machined up to use porsche race cv joints from milners but these broke as well.

Then we found mogs.

[bill van snorkle]

To be fair though Bill, the merc ring gears are over 2" thick and made by engineers not accountants.

And i've used them hard and never broke a ring gear, it's allways been the front cv's that have failed on me.

The front cv's do hold the vehicle weight and hold the wheel bearing together, but they fail mostly on cage cracking up.

we've attributed this to the amount of steering angle on them 34degrees (i think) and the outer bell flexing.

we managed a partial cure by banding the bell and restricting the steering lock a little, but we still went on to break more cv's some even with the wheels straigh ahead!

we had a set of stub shafts machined up to use porsche race cv joints from milners but these broke as well.

Then we found mogs.

Wondered where you disappeared to Dan. Would you think that the grain structure of the non full floating CV and outer shaft being stressed both torsionally and in shear could be the reason for the relatively common failures of what is quite a large joint? A company I once worked for purchased one of the Aus army ex evaluation 300 GD's, which reputadely broke a CV joint whilst ARB had it to make up bull bars prior to the trials.

Those Porshe type Rzeppa joints are interesting pices of work. I played around with them some years back. They work perfectly well up to their design angle, and then explode catastrophically if you go even half a degree beyond.

bill.

[dirtydiesel]

Wondered where you disappeared to Dan. Would you think that the grain structure of the non full floating CV and outer shaft being stressed both torsionally and in shear could be the reason for the relatively common failures of what is quite a large joint? A company I once worked for purchased one of the Aus army ex evaluation 300 GD's, which reputadely broke a CV joint whilst ARB had it to make up bull bars prior to the trials.

Not disappered mate, i just don't have too much to say around here nowardays.

Ultimately i think it would have an effect on the way the cv work hardened,

But on the G wagon the cv joint isn't actually in sheer,

The wheel bearing setup is almost identical to a modern fwd car setup, with the wheel bearing is supported on a hub and built into a hub carrier (the swivel housing) the cv joint is then assembled through the middle holding the entire assy together

Those Porshe type Rzeppa joints are interesting pices of work. I played around with them some years back. They work perfectly well up to their design angle, and then explode catastrophically if you go even half a degree beyond.

bill.

We grenaded a 170mm one in the straight ahead position less than 2 hours into testing.

after that i lost faith and gave up on them.

[dirtydiesel]

The side of the teeth aren't intentionally tapered they have been mashed that way during engagement. The plan is to reshape them back to flats, and then harden.

Whilst i've no doubt the hardening would help, i've seen this sort of damage with the stock gwagon setup

It is normaly caused by one of 2 things either;

poor adjustment of the actuator.

or insurficient hydraulic pressure either due to poor bleeding or failed seals in the cylinders

[RangeyRover]

Whilst i've no doubt the hardening would help, i've seen this sort of damage with the stock gwagon setup

It is normaly caused by one of 2 things either;

poor adjustment of the actuator.

or insurficient hydraulic pressure either due to poor bleeding or failed seals in the cylinders

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the info. Don't have them under yet but I'm considering using the ps pump through a reducer for the hydraulic pressure. I do have the original system, but not much space to put it in the cab, as mine is an auto also thought of using a clutch pedal for the pressure.

Did you ever have a problem with shafts or diffs breaking? Just interested as no one seems to make upgraded shafts which sort of says something.

there is an upgraded cv availale now from here https://www.rcvperformance.com/store/catalog/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=30&reviews_id=5

Thanks

RR

[dirtydiesel]

I've used RRC clutch master cyl's to good effect before.

Never broke a diff, bust a front short shaft once being silly.

I think the rear axle would take anything you could throw at it, i was really really nasty to mine and it never failed.

It's a shame the rcv cv's weren't available back then. But then again i think tony is still having problems so they aren't a total fix.

[bill van snorkle]

I've used RRC clutch master cyl's to good effect before.

Never broke a diff, bust a front short shaft once being silly.

I think the rear axle would take anything you could throw at it, i was really really nasty to mine and it never failed.

It's a shame the rcv cv's weren't available back then. But then again i think tony is still having problems so they aren't a total fix.

Dan, can you remember if the front inner halfshafts are bushed at the swivel balls ? If so, I was wondering if halfshaft deflection from centre when going from straight ahead to lock might place additional stress on the cV bell ?

Bill.

[dirtydiesel]

Dan, can you remember if the front inner halfshafts are bushed at the swivel balls ? If so, I was wondering if halfshaft deflection from centre when going from straight ahead to lock might place additional stress on the cV bell ?

Bill.

They have a loose fitting phospher bronze bush, most about all of my failings were from cracked cages.

[bladerunner6969]

hi the trouble with flipping the front axle on g wagon axle or any other axle is that the crown gears are beveled so as drive is engaged with 2 beveled gears meshed together they pull together creating a tight strong drive as soon as you flip an axle the bevel gears now push apart giving a sloppy engagement of gears creating diff wear. so get the best toyota or nissan or spent a fortune on arb and half shafts hope this has been some help

[bill van snorkle]

hi the trouble with flipping the front axle on g wagon axle or any other axle is that the crown gears are beveled so as drive is engaged with 2 beveled gears meshed together they pull together creating a tight strong drive as soon as you flip an axle the bevel gears now push apart giving a sloppy engagement of gears creating diff wear. so get the best toyota or nissan or spent a fortune on arb and half shafts hope this has been some help

Wrong way round.The reason most conventional differentials have large inner pinion bearings and smaller outer bearings is that drive thrust is supposed to load the larger bearing.

On a crownwheel and pinion driving on the correct side of the gear teeth the forces tend to push the gears away from each other.They only pull together on overun (coast)unless a conventionaldifferential designed for rear application is employed up front, in which case they tend to pull together when driving forward and push away in reverse.Anyone that has had a salisbury diff apart after the pinion nut has loosened off can attest to the fact that gears pulling towards each other on coastdoesn't do the pinion or carrier alot of good.

Bill.