Testing a TD5 Dual Mass Flywheel - Possible?

[EdF]

I'm about to replace the clutch on my 2002 90 TD5 as it's slipping. I have a two-part article in June/July 2008 LRO about almost everything regarding the TD5 flywheel & clutch, but there's no mention of how to check the dual mass flywheel. Is it possible by a DIY'er and what do I look for, excess movement between the two halves, and how much is excessive? Anyone know? Also, does anyone apart from Britpart do a heavy duty clutch? I haven't been able to find one..

[dantd5]

I'm about to replace the clutch on my 2002 90 TD5......Also, does anyone apart from Britpart do a heavy duty clutch? I haven't been able to find one..

Try http://www.rakeway.co.uk/

[EdF]

i think it was Sir Edmund Hilary who said: "those who need to ask, will never understand, but those who understand, will never need to ask"

If you don't know you have to ask, but you need to understand the answer.

Rakeway offer an AP Driveline HD clutch and a racing clutch. I've asked them which they think is suitable. Thanks for the reply.

[EdF]

Rakeway offer an AP Driveline HD clutch and a racing clutch. I've asked them which they think is suitable. Thanks for the reply.

Confusion: Just looked on EBay and one online shop also sells an AP Driveline heavy duty clutch and another, Ribble Valley 4x4, claims that AP do not make a heavy duty clutch for the TD5 and that those who say they do are miss leading (sic) the public. Ho-hum.....

[landy andy.]

Do you have any juddering when pulling away in first?

Do you have any "chattering" noise?

You will be able to check DMF when you do the clutch to see if there is play. But I understand that you would like to know before hand, but above are the only indications that I can think of.

Andy

[EdF]

No, the clutch is smooth when pulling away.. The only thing I've noticed is that there's a sort of loud 'tinkling' noise when first started and idling, but it's only really noticeable outside and it seems to disappear fairly quickly and I've never associated it with the transmission.., more the timing chain.. Of course, I could be wrong.. I expect the DMF slapping about would make a bit of a noise if faulty.. The only thing out of the ordinary is the clutch slipping if angered.

[landy andy.]

Sounds like you just need a clutch then.

Andy

[EdF]

Yes, hope so. Just had a reply from Magal, who now own AP Driveline. They don't make a heavy duty clutch for a TD5, just the standard item. Their reply:-

FTC4631 , our KT7892 is not heavy duty, it is the standard clutch replacement for the TD5 Landrover. It should be available for mail order from either Border Holdings, Bearmach or Allmakes, all of which have accounts with Raicam Clutch Ltd, formerly AP Driveline.

Best regards,

Ian Scobie

Product Manager

[landy andy.]

The only HD clutches that I know about are people who are selling a non DMF and clutch kit. The problem with that is that the clutch is very very heavy, and they are using their own design of clutch, so you are tied to that brand, and if they stop making/close then you need to buy new flywheel and clutch.

I also belive that there is a reason that a DMF was fitted as standard.

Good luck

Andy

[EdF]

Thanks Andy, you just decided me to get a standard AP clutch fitted. My wife has trouble with the standard clutch pedal, she'd never manage it if it was any harder. She's had several operations on her left leg.. I'd even thought of changing it to an auto at one point.. We'd both rather sell the 90 and get an auto Disco 3 though..

[SteveG]

Interested to know symptoms of clutch slip.

Does it happen under hard acceleration?

Is it intermittent?

Has it only started over winter months?

Have you had your TD5 remapped?

Do you get burning smell?

[EdF]

Interested to know symptoms of clutch slip.

Does it happen under hard acceleration?

Is it intermittent?

Has it only started over winter months?

Have you had your TD5 remapped?

Do you get burning smell?

Hi Steve..

Basically, the clutch plate is like a disc of brake shoe material on a thin steel backing plate between the flywheel, which is a steel disc on the back of the engine crankshaft, and a cover which has springs in the centre. The springs in the cover, which are like flaps, not coil springs, hold the clutch plate tight against the flywheel, linking the engine to the gearbox. When you dip the clutch pedal, a rod releases the springs and the grip between the clutch plate (on the gearbox side) and the engine flywheel is broken, the springs having been holding everything together. When the brake shoe material wears and becomes worn and/or slippery, usually through use (glazed) or sometimes with oil from an oil leak, enough power makes the clutch plate literally 'slip'. The symptom is mainly that when you accelerate, the engine revs rise but you don't go any faster as the flywheel (engine) is whizzing around ever faster (as the drive isn't getting to the wheels) as the clutch plate is 'slipping' on it. This is when you may get a burning smell as the friction starts to heat up the clutch plate.. I did get a burning smell once when towing a trailer up a long hill, though I was going through the gearbox to try and stop it slipping. I believe that once it starts slipping, it will eventually need replacing. Mine took a while to get to that stage.

To answer your questions.

1. Yes, and it started to happen nearly a year ago when accelerating hard in 5th up a motorway sliproad to match the speed of the traffic in the inside lane. I believe that high torque (pulling power) is more likely to initiate it.

2. Yes, it has been intermittent and has gone 11,000 miles since it first started, very slowly getting worse but in the meantime having pulled a horse trailer (with horse) with no apparent problem. It got much worse quickly, in the last month or two..

3. It started in spring last year. I can't see a connection with the outside temperature.

4. Yes, my 90 has been remapped, and on another forum, from the posts I got it seems to be more common on tuned motors. I suspect (but don't quote me) that the standard clutch isn't up to handling the extra power long if it's a bit worn... When you think about it, more power might wear it out quicker. Have a look at the photo of a clutch kit and you may get an idea of what it consists of. I don't drive aggressively.. Cheers, Ed.

[SteveG]

Hi Ed

Thanks for answers.

Reason for Q's is I have same symptoms and so do others, IIRC SimonR does too and I'm not sure spending out on a new clutch & flywheel yet will be worthwhile investment. It may only be a temporary cure.

• Mine appeared after had TD5 remapped, so did Simon's. So I expect there is a link.
• I've had no burning smell at all, which is a usual by product of excessive clutch slip.
• It very is intermittent. I'm no clutch expert, but if it was wear, surely it would do it the majority of time that high torque is going through it.
• Mine appears to be linked to ambient temperature/humidity. It happens a lot less in summer months to the point that it practically disappears on mine

At first I wondered if it was turbo/wastegate related. Here you could also get a corresponding high revs with no dramatic increase in power. However, I ran a trace on Rovacom while driving and all seems to be ok.

Personally I wonder if it's seals related. In the colder weather seals do contract. I need to get off my derriere and check out everything. I have heard of the fuel regulator leaking and it seeping into the bellhousing. This is just hearsay though no proof. My TD5 happens so infrequently that I haven't got around to it.

Steve

[EdF]

Sorry if I was 'teaching Granny to suck eggs' in my reply, but it's hard to know how much someone knows.. You've brought up a good point as for some time I couldn't make mine slip, no matter what I did.. It was very intermittent, making me think it had 'settled down' and was okay, then it just suddenly started again in February(accelerating in 5th) and it gradually got worse. I started investigating flywheel issues, but I've been led to believe from several members of different forums that the flywheel can't make the clutch slip. I'm no engineer, but in my view it's a simple mechanical device and not affected by anything other than wear and tear and contaminants. Perhaps the outside temperature relates to engine performance more, so that when the engine is delivering more power, it's more likely to slip? Is air denser in the winter..., would that make such a difference?? It DOES seem to be a recurring problem with tuned engines, though. I am coming to the opinion that a fairly regular new clutch might be the price one has to pay...

[SteveG]

Hi Ed

I doubt that it's power related as it's intermittent. However, when I have time, I'll put mine back to a standard tune and see how it runs for a week.

Steve

[landy andy.]

I am now being told that the clutch slipping could be, the release bearing catching as it opperates. Or the pivot arm not opperating correctly.

Will know soon........................

Andy

[landy andy.]

Have been talking to someone who had the exact same problem with his Td5 Defender clutch and intermittent slipping,

And it was the Fuel Regulator leaking, he said that he had not noticed any smell of diesel or noticed any leaks. But when he too the gearbox off he found that there was signs of diesel within the bell housing. New fuel regulator and all fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please let me know your thoughts.

This is something that I mentioned to my garage, but they said to me that they have only known of Disco ones failing. But why would they be a different part?? Is it just that Disco drivers are more concerned about small leaks???

Andy

[Les Henson]

I've done 2 dmf conversions fairly recently - Disco and a 90. Both were slipping intermittently and the slipping on the Disco was down to the slave cylinder, and the 90 was the thrust bearing binding on the guide.

Les.

[EdF]

I've done 2 dmf conversions fairly recently - Disco and a 90. Both were slipping intermittently and the slipping on the Disco was down to the slave cylinder, and the 90 was the thrust bearing binding on the guide.

Les.

Thanks Les, mine's getting done tomorrow by a workshop, I've not time. I hope to be able to reveal all, but it now feels like a worn-out clutch, slipping under load all the time and smelling.. How would the slave cylinder make the clutch slip, by staying under pressure?

Ed

[landy andy.]

Good luck, tell us asap, as mine is being done friday.

Are you going for standard one or none DMF??????????

Andy

[EdF]

Hi Andy,

I'm just back from the workshop with a sorry, but it seems not untypical tale. The mechanic first noticed that a propshaft bolt was loose but the thread was damaged, so he had to burn it off (last work done by a well-known company in Luton..) and he then found a gearbox mount was broken, threads stripped. Then the gearbox and bellhousing came off and he just avoided the splash of mucky fuel which came out. Guessed yet? Yes, the fuel pressure regulator was leaking and had contaminated the clutch, which was otherwise in quite good nick, with no appreciable wear. My guess is that this leak into the clutch got gradually worse over the year until the slipping got worse. I'm by no means an expert but perhaps the use of the clutch 'burnt off' the fuel for a start, which stopped the slipping for a while and gave the 'intermittent problem'? Just a guess. The mechanic had to take the flywheel off to see the fuel pressure regulator and he suggested that the flywheel be replaced as it was not wise to put it back, 'considering we do a lot of towing'. He felt it would last a long time if we only drove the 90 solo, but we don't. He put the flywheel on a bench and there was a rocking motion in it when the gearbox side was pushed down on alternate sides. He rated it as 4 out of 10. The workshop opinion was not to put a solid flywheel in so it's getting a Land Rover one as that's all that's readily available at short notice (up here).. I was told that at one time Land Rover ran out of stock of these fuel pressure regulators as there was such a demand for them.. So, your info was correct. The clutch wasn't actually wet, but was grey and gungy and obviously the pool of diesel which had been in the bottom of the bellhousing was proof enough. I remember taking the drain plug out when it stated slipping and nothing came out, so it must have gradually got worse. The back of the engine and gasket were both wet under the fuel leak. IF it's the same thing on yours, hopefully you'll get away with a new regulator and a clutch. Should be ready at 3pm. The bank is 'standing by...' If anyone reading this is in the Inverness area, it's being done at Inverness 4x4 on the Longman estate. They know their Landies.

[EdF]

The bank is 'standing by...'

They needed to as I'm now £790 lighter.. AND they didn't replace the fuel pressure regulator.. It has to go back for that little job, so maybe another £150-ish.. sob. Mummy said they'd be weeks like this.. My desktop PC burnt itself out yesterday..

[landy andy.]

Thank you.

Very interested to read your reply,

Mine is being done Friday, so we will find out then.

Think we might both owe thanks to Jon at Croytec.

Andy

[EdF]

The pressure regulator was done today, it took the mechanic 45 minutes. He said it was nearly always the 'O' rings which give way and it was very common. I gathered that one has to buy the whole thing to replace the 'O' rings.. In fact he'd just done another motor before mine. He said that if 'hydraulic seals' could be fitted, it might stop the problem as they would be more suitable. It seems it's a tough job on a Disco TD5 as there's no room to work. I would suggest to anyone reading this saga about the clutch to carefully check if this regulator is leaking as you should see fuel down the back of the engine around the offside of the bellhousing. As there are several places oil can leak from in the area, I thought for ages the odd drips were oil from the back of the rocker box, which has a slight leak and there's also been a slight leak from where the main oil filter once came a little loose. If I'd spotted the diesel earlier, I might have saved the cost of a new clutch. One of the problems was that the drips looked like oil from the muck they'd picked up on the way down. The mechanic said that the fuel leak can also knacker the starter motor.. I believe somewhere else in the forum someone asked why the regulator can leak after a new one is fitted. Seems it's down to carp seals.. (So I was told.) Ed

[landy andy.]

Thanks Ed.

Mine is getting new FPR on Friday and amassive amount of brake cleaner sprayed into the bell housing.

My clutch has only slipped 10 times or so and think will risk it and see what happens.

The 6 hours of driving to the Indoor 4x4 show could have paid for it self by saving me the cost of a clutch swap.

Andy