David_LLAMA4x4 Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Just had a chat with a friend / fellow 4x4 trade supplier who told me of an equiry he had just taken for front relocation cones: As above the enwuiry was taken by a chap wanting to purcahse some front relocation cones for hos 90. Ehen asked what shocks / springs etc. the vehicle was using to try and ascertain what length of cone might be needed the cutomer replied 'Standard LR ones'. Seeing an opportunity to perhaps supply him with the new shocks and springs as well my friend asked him what sh / sp he was going to fit. To which the chap replied ' I.m keeping the stf ones as I don't want a lift , I just want the relocation cones so I can get more axle droop and'. This is when alarm bells atarted ringing - the man obviously had no idea how a suspension system worked but could easily have been persuaded to waste £50 on stuff he simply did not need! What is more the man who did not know how his suspension worked was prepared to take it all aprt and rebuild it himself!! Our conversation then turned to other suspesnion issues along the lines of - How many people who fit +2" shocks and 2" drop turrets / brackets space their bumpstops to protect the now way too long compressed length of their shocks?? Is there really any benefit in gaing 4" of droop when you lose 4" of upward travel? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Our conversation then turned to other suspesnion issues along the lines of - How many people who fit +2" shocks and 2" drop turrets / brackets space their bumpstops to protect the now way too long compressed length of their shocks?? Is there really any benefit in gaing 4" of droop when you lose 4" of upward travel? David Hi David I haven't seen anyone fitting +4" bump stops There is a lot of room in the standard position of the bump stops. I've found that with +1.5" springs and -2" shock mounts all round, you need to drop the bump stops by an inch max to stop the shocks compressing too far. This was using DeCarbon shocks. So not the loss in upward travel you claim. Frankly with 33" tyres (255/85 16's BFG's) fitted like me you need this anyway to stop the tyres from fouling the rear arch tops. To have the same amount of articulation I could have gone down the route of + shock mounts all round and started butchering the rear arches or simply just fitted small tyres, but personally I like the extra room under the diffs that the BFG's give. I'm not getting the full benefit of mine yet as I'm still running standard front and rear radius arms. Phased approach means I'll be changing this over the next 2-3 months. btw there is a guy on here called Porny running standard springs with longer shocks and articulation, although he's invested in a White Peak Engineering kit to totally change mount positions of shocks etc to achieve this. Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted June 6, 2006 Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 I quite agree that 255/85 MY's are the way forward and accept that a slight lift 1-2" is required to use them sensibly.... I have measured various LR vehicles and almost all of them work out the same - you can eat a good 1" into the standard bumpstops without too much fear of over closing the shocks even with hard use so if you run +2" shocks ( extended so about 1" longer closed ) then you will not need to drop your bumpstops. Altenatively use std shock lengths and drop the brackets by 2" and you will still be safe. However when this extra 1" closed length ( which uses up all the spare room ) is combined with dropped mountings then however much you lower your mounts by will need to be packed under the bumpstops or the possibility of damaging your shocks is there. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porny Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 btw there is a guy on here called Porny running standard springs with longer shocks and articulation, although he's invested in a White Peak Engineering kit to totally change mount positions of shocks etc to achieve this.Cheers Steve Hrmm.... infamous at last My 90: More pictures here: http://www.whitepeakengineering.com/Weekenderkits.htm Not fully twisted up though. I know it was cheating, but I do like this picture: At the moment I'm only running extended bump stops at the front - just up rated ones at the rear. If the axle is compressed horizontally then it will touch the bump stops just before the dampers bottom out... though if twisted, it doesn't..... But then there are issues with running extended bump stops too (still messing with this). From what I've seen, you'll be surprised what kits come with extended bump stops - yet they are actually not big enough to touch when twisted. The other problem is with so much twist, the axle pivots on the bump stop and rides around it - so it doesn't actually do anything. On standard size tyres, my tyre just rubs the spring mount when compressed (twisted up) and isn't that far from the top of the wheel box. With bigger tyres, or more upward travel you would have to run a massive offset, and/or extend the top of the wheel boxes. Which I don't want to do. As mentioned, my 90 runs completely standard 90 LR springs, it is only the dampers and the mounts that are different. I really don't see the point of a suspension lift on a 90 unless you are running bigger tyres... and I'm more than happy how my 90 handles (esp. with a set of -3 degree radius arms). Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted June 6, 2006 Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 Quite agree Porny - there is no need for ridiculous lifts on LR's. 1 to 1.5" will allow you to get tyres under and will not knacker all your steering geometry etc. .... It is the length of the damper, not the spring that will allow for more travel so as you have achieved with yours new dampers on different mounts can afford you masses of axle travel.... My own long travel' Challenge' suspension kit for 90s does just this and uses 11.5" travel shocks ( about +5.5" ) without the need for packing the bumpstops at all....Llama 4x4 website David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porny Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Quite agree Porny - there is no need for ridiculous lifts on LR's. 1 to 1.5" will allow you to get tyres under and will not knacker all your steering geometry etc. .... It is the length of the damper, not the spring that will allow for more travel so as you have achieved with yours new dampers on different mounts can afford you masses of axle travel.... My own long travel' Challenge' suspension kit for 90s does just this and uses 11.5" travel shocks ( about +5.5" ) without the need for packing the bumpstops at all....Llama 4x4 website David Or even this link Llama 4x4 website Is this your kit, or a Gwyn Lewis one?? As the pic at the top of the page is off his website?? My 90 runs 12" Procomp dampers (AFAIK) and also has a pin/pin arrangement at the back, rather than a pin/eye as when fully extended (depending on the mount) you can actually see a pin/eye arrangement bowing the damper, as it can not allow enough twist. Which is why Devon 4x4 have made a revolving damper mount AFAIK - another solution to the same problem. As mentioned, spring length doesn't allow more travel... it is just the dampers. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJL Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Quite agree Porny - there is no need for ridiculous lifts on LR's. 1 to 1.5" will allow you to get tyres under and will not knacker all your steering geometry etc. .... It is the length of the damper, not the spring that will allow for more travel so as you have achieved with yours new dampers on different mounts can afford you masses of axle travel.... My own long travel' Challenge' suspension kit for 90s does just this and uses 11.5" travel shocks ( about +5.5" ) without the need for packing the bumpstops at all....Llama 4x4 website David Dave The URL Contains a comma where a full stop is needed ....Llama 4x4 website I blame it on your schooling! James Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Looks like all the 'LR suspension stuff' pics are off Gwyn's site. Re lifting, I think that other than fitting bigger tyres under the arches a bit of lift can help with approach angles etc and just generally lifts most of the vehicle out of the way of obsticles. I'm going to be running 1.5-2" lift with 14" pro-comps at the rear with +4" mounts, although the front will still be fairly standard to begin with running 10" pro-comps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s2hotdog Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Interesting topic Just what I have been thinking about doing I only want to raise the suspension by 1 inch approx Also going to put/engineer a H14 pto winch on a heavy duty bumper on the front I have a fairly new set of koni shocks on the rear axle I've been happy with them So what springs would I need on the rear axle and can I get away with the koni shocks on standard shock mounts or will need to get a lowering set? for the lift/extra travel? At the moment I have standard spring mounts on the front axle and standard shocks that I will replace with another set of koni I expect or will I need to get longer shocks? As I'm going to put the H14 and bumper on what springs would I need to achieve a 1 inch lift and what about new shocks would the koni be ok Would I need to get new spring mounts? or will the standard LR ones ok Thanks Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 My series on leaves moves more than that!! Ho hum....... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 My series on leaves moves more than that!!Ho hum....... Jon Yeah but rides like s**t Anyway, what do you want? A medal? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon White Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 [Mutley mode] Medal? Medal? yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah........[/Mutley mode] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted June 6, 2006 Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 Thankyou everyone for pointing out that I can;t typpee......... And thankyou for correcting the URRL.... The bracketry of the kit is indded of Gwyn's manufacture - he is about 5 miles from me and the brackets one way / brake hose the other deal works very well! Gwyn's stuff is all very strong, no frills equipment that works properly rather than just looking nice which made it the obvious choice for me to add to my product range. Where my kit differs is that I use Rough Country shocks - I would as I am the UK importer.... Not that there is any LR stuff on it, as their LR stuff is being made solely for me but the Rough Country site is well worth a look Rough Country website The 1st container of LR production ( rather than prototype ) shocks should be with me in 3-4 weeks so get ready to see them at the Shows this summer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted June 6, 2006 Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 Dave The URL Contains a comma where a full stop is needed ....Llama 4x4 websiteI blame it on your schooling! James Lawson Just noticed who this post is from - my school was just as good as yours!!!!!! How the devil are you?? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Don't you just hate it when old friends meet up! By the way hello Dave - long time no see. Trentham - MacGoneagains first show, with Diana, was probably the last time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Thus is a good thread. Porny, what was your RTI with that setup? David (LLama4x4), its good to see a supplier considering what a customer needs and not just taking the cash. Those +5.5" shocks, do you have the dimensions base of pin to base of pin compressed and extended? Oh, (to anyone that wants to listen) springs DO matter. Get the rates wrong and you will not maximise the travel available from your shocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_LLAMA4x4 Posted June 6, 2006 Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 David (LLama4x4), its good to see a supplier considering what a customer needs and not just taking the cash. Those +5.5" shocks, do you have the dimensions base of pin to base of pin compressed and extended? From base of stud to base of stud they measure: 27" extended / 15.5" compressed Hope that info is of some help to you... I am just waiting for news from the factory that they have been dispatched to the docks and I will be able to give a much better idea of when I will have them.. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LR90 Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Hmm, not bad, 11.5" travel and shorter compressed length than N73. Could be a good replacement for the +3's on the back of my truck, currently limited by the tub which I've already started cutting holes in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 David, Intersting post...heres my input a sort of Rehash one post of all the mods I have done... Suspension is a absolute nightmare. Jon Ws series with parabolics, modded shock mounts and a few other twaeaks will give many a modded coiler a serious run for its money - why - ? cos he has placed a load of time and THOUGHT into it rather than just write a cheque for "The next must have kit". Tonks is another cart sprunger that "Moves" nicely....and will out perform many a coiler Suspension is about many things, from my research time and mods there are a number of variables : 1. WEIGHT - not not HOW HEAVY etc but weight vs Spring poundages, get the spring too hard and then off road the springs won't compress, too soft and bump stops are kissed regualrly. Tevs (LR90) spring calc is a must and a superb help in this area......without it 1 2 are guessing !... Ta trev BTW 2. Coil Length vs Poundage . Many may disagree with me here, but IMHO a axle that has extended massively but still has a spring and downward pressure on the axle is better than an axle that is just "hanging" with no conection to the LR. As such you can have a hrd short spring, extended and hanging, or for the same ride height a MUCH longer spring, but MUCGH softer, so that it can extend and extend and extend and still be conncetd. Many may disagree but I think the 90 (or LR) connected and exerting downwards force is better than dislocation . I have done this, fitted the longest softest springs, linked to the weight of the 90, AND then dislocations springs on top. ( I bought Gon2fars cheap brillinat and could be bothered to copy them for the price ) 3. Shocks. This could be a 400 post post of its own. BUT shocks vary, both rebound and extension, damping and dimensions etc. From a dimensional point a view a shock is not the same as another shock, you have to see what the Overall length is and the compacted length is, some have cylinder longer than others, so have the same extended length, but longer shorter different compacted length. There gets a point with seriously long shocjks that on full rebound you have the shock "imploding", I reached this point, so fitted even LONGER shocks and then RAISED the top shock mounts to accomdate the longer shock. 4. Ride hieight It has to be factored in 2 3 4 5 inch lits can have all sorts of effects - from Caster to A Frame Ball joints etc. I have maintained the STD ride height,...... but have loopey travel long shocks, ........this then meant cutting the rear wheel boxes about to let the wheel come further up "inside" the 90. 5. the front is more difficult to get to "move" than the rear, yet with the mods on mine (raised front turrets longer softer springs big heavy winch Blue and red mixed polybushes hand made saucer washers etc) I have disclocation cones on the front +3 inch brake lines and can get the axle to twist massively. Without a doubt 3 link (a la Paul W Nick RV would give a lot more true) .......but the front is a bitch to get to move but ........hugh improvements can be attained. 6. Props. Get huge movement and Prop UJs can bind, brake lines rip off, A Frame ball joints tear of casings etc etc etc Its a lot of work and planning, kits are nearly alwayts a compromise but so is what I have or I would be 3 / 4 linking / rose joints etc, but they are another set of compromises and prioblems to sort. There is a lot that can be done without going silly.......but then again whweres the fun in being sensible ? 7. "Other Bits" Bent Raduis arms, rose joints turrets covers for the front, arches trimming, bodywork catching are all extra probs. Maybe there is something for fitting say a decent set of say OME Springs & Shocks and extending the bump stiops etc...., job done in a day, lost count of my time and costs here, so whos right ?...and who mad ?...and whos wrong ? 8. Lastly I have fitted REDUCED bump stopsd from a Disco, and cut away and reshaped the tip that hangs down for increased raising of the axle, where most extend the bump stop with spacers etc, all of the above gives me reasonable suspension movement, and still has some road manners, .......much as though I keep thinking 3 link the compromise worries me for road use ....and a load of BHP...... Oh and tyres make a huge difference and bring their own set of probs.... But maybe, just maube, as the front lefts down the rear Does it ever end ? So, whos right and whos wrong ? None, nobody, except the people that don't even THINK about the mods they do .... Otherwise its about what you are either prepared to do / try / pay /or maybe you have limuted skill / , time,/ money / patience, .....and how much do you wnat suspension wise ? The more you "generate" the more things wear out - ask me how I know But, as I said very interesting thread, see how it develops .... Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Raider Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 u sure u meant to say Tonks coiler Nige? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 u sure u meant to say Tonks coiler Nige? Where did you read that, then Mandy? Tonks is another cart sprunger that "Moves" nicely....and will out perform many a coiler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porny Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Porny, what was your RTI with that setup? Using 90” as the wheel base (not 92.9”) My RTI (I think – didn’t write them down) 800ish forwards – 72” or thereabouts up the ramp (though I think I did get a bit further on the second day) 933 Backwards – 84” up the ramp (backwards it was further than the Scorpion Extreme kitted 90 that won) The measurements were a bit inaccurate in reality though, as there are only a few markings on the ramp – every 12” (And no tape measure used) But in saying that, Kev Baldwin may have a very accurate eye!!!! Also, my suspension had only been fitted for a week, and had all new red polybushes etc etc. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cols110 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Interesting thread, as I want to eventually increase the articulation a bit without adding more than a 1 inch lift, and using a set of Koni or Bilstein shocks. Probably a project of next winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Jon Ws series with parabolics, modded shock mounts and a few other twaeaks will give many a modded coiler a serious run for its money - why - ? cos he has placed a load of time and THOUGHT into it rather than just write a cheque for "The next must have kit". Tonks is another cart sprunger that "Moves" nicely....and will out perform many a coiler Nige, why are you constantly putting in derogatory comments about people that buy 'off-shelf' items? Not every body has the time, interest, equipment and know-how to fabricate their own suspension components. People like Gwyn Lewis, Andy at WhitePeak, Simon at X-Eng, Simon at Devon 4x4 etc put a lot of engineering effort and research into their systems turning out very well engineered and competent solutions. What's wrong with someone buying components or a complete system from them? Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 EH ? No thats not what I said, .............. I acyallu said was that a decent kit "say OME Springs and shocks etc and job done in a weekend" may be a very sensible approach, over the stupidity of what I have done / time etc. (and as you pointed out there are some other VERY good options off the shelf GL X Eng etc etc - I picked OME as I have seen it work 1st hand and it is nice kit too) What I also said was there are people who buy "something" cos its the "must have" bit, and they have no thought nor idea what it will / won't do mismatched with what they have / don't have.... ie David 1st post - Disc cones and NOTHING else ! Some off the shelf kits are very very good, and offer stunning value for money and are easily fitted.... So no............... ner ! Nige PS I also bought Gon2Fars cones too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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