Drivetrain Play

[Retroanaconda]

Simple one really, I recently changed my front prop as the old one was majorly knackered, but now the new one is sqeaking away, and I have a nasty vibration at 35-40mph and over.

There is a LOT of play in my front diff/axle, 1/4 turn or more on the prop, could this contribute to accellerated prop UJ/spline wear? I guess it's slamming the prop hard against it each time I take up drive?

Really got to sort out the front driveline, starting to annoy me now

[landroversforever]

sorry its no use to you james... but I'd also like to know the answer here

[Retroanaconda]

Hmm, I have checked again underneath and it's weird....I have over-estimated my rotary play at the props, both the front and rear only have about 1/5 or 1/6 a turn of play. Which is a fair bit, but not as much as I thought given the horrible noises underneath when driving it. Both props also appear to be quite solid, a tiny amount of play in one UJ on front and one on the rear, but there is a hell of a squeaking and vibration coming from under there!

What's also annoying is that in the rear axle the play can only be either in the diff or between the diff and shafts, as I have the one-piece shafts in there so no drive flanges to worry about. The front has far more scope for play, given the diff, shafts, CVs and drive flanges.

So in addition to my question above re. driveline play killing props...

1. What is an acceptable amount of rotary play at the prop?
2. I guess the best way for me to start reducing it is to start swapping the cheapest components first?

Typical that this starts to manifest now, not as if I haven't got enough to do in my two days off every two weeks with the 110 et al

Pinion seal has gone on the front prop too, as well as BOTH output seals on the transfer box! Nightmare!

[ashtray]

if your front prop slides apart, on the splined shaft, so you have two halves of a prop shaft, the uj's have to be not inline, if you get me, there is a correct angle that they have to be apart from each other, i dont know what angle this needs to be though, but i know that if the prop cups are inline they fail very quickly. i hope you got that, its quite difficult to explain. Maybe someone else will be able to help some more on that.

also, my diffs have a lot of rotary play in their pinions, but this is fairly normal. Every diff i have tested is like that. Really you should have no play in any prop uj's, or on the spline either, these will cause noise/vibration and fail very quickly, be sure to keep them well greased. I find that taking them off is the best way of testing, that way you can feel for stiffness in any of the bearings

[Retroanaconda]

The UJ alignment is something I am aware of, however this prop has been fitted for a week or two and has just started to vibrate, so I don't think that is causing it. I'm sure it's the play in the UJs or splined joint that is doing it, I'm just suprised at how bad the vibration and noise is considering the tiny amount of play in the thing. I have another front prop in the workshop with a good slip joint, that I'm going to put some new UJs in and fit. This should solve my prop issue.

At the same time I think I will also have a drive around with just the rear prop on (in diff-lock) to see if I can narrow some of the play to one axle or the other.

The other thing I have thought of since writing the post above is the transfer box input gear. At 150,000 miles I guess it could be coming up to it's end, that or the gearbox output shaft. I guess I can test for play here by putting the handbrake on and trying to engage drive in 1st and then reverse. Will give that a go next time I'm in the car.

At least if it comes to it I have a spare LT77 and LT230 sitting in the 110, but I would prefer not to have to spend a day swapping the damn things into to the 90

[V8 Freak]

David helped me some time ago with prop UJ alignment.

If you imagine standing under the truck looking forward the front prop should be one or two splines anti-clockwise compared to the back UJ on the same prop.

I don't know if this applies to the rear prop of a 90 as I have a 110 and the UJ's are aligned on my rear prop.

That tiny amount of play you mention could be the squeal I the joint is dry as well! Replace the UJ, check alignment as described and see what it's like before you start changing transfer box etc.

Neil

[Retroanaconda]

I took the front prop off today, and driving in diff-lock I have noticed reduced vibration (still there a bit...), but it still sounds like a committee of mice is debating the spending review angrily under the car. Fed up of this now, so I'm going to get two completely new props and put them on. Does anybody have a good recommendation on where to buy? I want decent ones with grease-able UJs and sliders.

McDonald Landrover do Hardy Spicer props, front and rear, works out about £180 for both delivered. I assume they're the same ones Paddocks do for about £80 an end. Anyone had these before? From Hardy Spicer they should be good quality, but are they actually LR-specified props or a weaker (cheaper) product by Hardy Spicer which is the same fitment, like the cheaper OEM UJs are?

Next option up is probably the Gwyn Lewis ones, but at £350 for the pair, plus delivery, I'd rather save myself £150 if I can. I'm sure they are very good though, and they're supposed to be heavy duty, so maybe they are worth the extra in the long term?

Any thoughts?

[western]

have you given both props a really good greasing ?

you say you removed the front prop but squeak was still apparent, what happens with the front prop fitted & rear prop removed ?

[landroversforever]

I think I'm going for a Gwyn Lewis one for my rear prop that needs replacing. I see it as an investment

[outdoor_ian]

I have the Gwyn Lewis props front and rear on my 300TDI 90 they have performed faultlessly, are well made and have taken a fair bit of abuse. When the props depart on my other defenders they will be replaced with the Gwyn Lewis offerings.

They even come with a tube of grease per propshaft which is handy but not exactly a deal maker.

I just wanted strong, reliable and above all easy to maintain/grease/service.

I have nothing to do with Gwyn Lewis other than being a happy customer.

[Retroanaconda]

have you given both props a really good greasing ?

you say you removed the front prop but squeak was still apparent, what happens with the front prop fitted & rear prop removed ?

Front prop was greased up when I swapped it from the 110 onto the 90, the rear doesn't have any greasers on at all.

I know the squeak is from the rear prop now, but I also know the front prop has play in at least one UJ and the sliding joint (which I'm sure it didn't when I swapped it, hence my questioning re. slack in the axle killing props), so the best solution for me now I think is to just swap them both for new decent quality ones. Then I know where I am with the props at least, and can move my focus to sorting the other problems in the drivetrain.

Ross, I am beginning to come round to that thought process too. If I can scrape the money together (hey, what else are credit cards for?) I might go for two of Gwyn's ones. At least I know they should be of good merit, as his stuff tends to come highly recommended.

Right now I am one more breakage away from buying a Focus!

[Retroanaconda]

Well, hopefully got this sorted now. Today I replaced:

• Both props
• Front diff pinion seal
• Transfer box front output seal
• Transfer box rear output seal

And I am pleased to report that it now drives like a different car! Very little banging about underneath (what is there I believe is the result of the slight slack in the diffs, combined with slack in gearbox/transfer box), and no more squeaking!

The rear prop I took of was also knackered, with a UJ that was about to let go. I don't know what's happened to make them both fail so badly so suddenly, perhaps it's purely because I've been doing 200 miles a week in it for the past month or two whereas before that it wasn't really used (beyond the odd pay-and-play/laning trip) since the snow we had in January.

PS. The nut holding the flange onto the front diff was quite possibly the tightest thing I've ever undone! Eventually did it with a block of wood jamming the brakes on, a 2' breaker bar on the nut, and a whole lot of pulling with my feet on the chassis! Let go with one hell of a bang

Off to watch the Howlin' Wolf Round 4 at Slindon tomorrow, so that will let everything warm up nicely underneath so I can do a more thorough leak check

Oh, and the moral of the story... buy decent props with grease-able parts...and actually grease them!

Moral of the story

[landroversforever]

Well, hopefully got this sorted now. Today I replaced:

• Both props
• Front diff pinion seal
• Transfer box front output seal
• Transfer box rear output seal

And I am pleased to report that it now drives like a different car! Very little banging about underneath (what is there I believe is the result of the slight slack in the diffs, combined with slack in gearbox/transfer box), and no more squeaking!

The rear prop I took of was also knackered, with a UJ that was about to let go. I don't know what's happened to make them both fail so badly so suddenly, perhaps it's purely because I've been doing 200 miles a week in it for the past month or two whereas before that it wasn't really used (beyond the odd pay-and-play/laning trip) since the snow we had in January.

PS. The nut holding the flange onto the front diff was quite possibly the tightest thing I've ever undone! Eventually did it with a block of wood jamming the brakes on, a 2' breaker bar on the nut, and a whole lot of pulling with my feet on the chassis! Let go with one hell of a bang

Off to watch the Howlin' Wolf Round 4 at Slindon tomorrow, so that will let everything warm up nicely underneath so I can do a more thorough leak check

Oh, and the moral of the story... buy decent props with grease-able parts...and actually grease them!

Moral of the story

This bodes well for my prop change tomorrow then .

On the front pinion nut... I resorted to brakes jammed on with a bit of wood and a brick. And then used my bottle jack under the breaker bar! Started lifting the weight of the truck, and then the almighty bang as the nut let go!