Philip Tonkin Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I am planning to buy a Disk Braked Sankey Widetrack MkIII. As I passed my test after 1997 and have not yet done my B+E test (it's planned) I want to be sure I am 100% within the law for this trailer now. My car is a TD5 90 HT Which has a Kerb Weight of 1665Kg and a GVW of 2400Kg I believe the Sankey weighs 509Kg Unladen and has a Capacity of 750Kg so a MAM of 1259Kg As I understand the law I only need B+E if the gross trail weight is greater than 3500Kg. I am also aware that the MAM must not exceed the Kerb Weight of the towing vehicle which based on these numbers it would not. So the questions: 1. None of the Sankey Trailers I have seen have any plates apart from the military ones, is there one with the MAM (under any name) other than just the 3/4 tone name? 2. Is the gross train weight the MAM of the Trailer + a)Kerb Weight or b)GVW If a) all good If b) darn that number is 159Kg too much on to Question 3. 3. Can I re-plate (if plated at all see Q1) so that the capacity of the trailer is now 591Kg as I would be legally limiting myself to a lower weight and preventing myself from towing more than my licence allows. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I can answer 2, the gross train weight is the vehicle GVW plus the trailer MAM. So for a 110 with a GVW of 2950kg, a Sankey with a MAM of 3500kg, the gross train weight would be 3700kg. A 90 has a lower GVW, 2400kg mine is too, so would come out as 3150kg train weight. OK for post-97 license. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Tonkin Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 I can answer 2, the gross train weight is the vehicle GVW plus the trailer MAM. So for a 110 with a GVW of 2950kg, a Sankey with a MAM of 3500kg, the gross train weight would be 3700kg. A 90 has a lower GVW, 2400kg mine is too, so would come out as 3150kg train weight. OK for post-97 license. Thanks for the clarification but the train weight would be higher than that wouldn't it? The MAM of the trailer is more than 750Kg isn't it (I thought 1259Kg)? Otherwise it would be weightless when empty :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Sorry, your understanding of what you can tow without doing the B+E test is incorrect. Without B + E you can only tow an unbraked trailer with a maximum loaded weight of 750kg. The best explanation I have seen of this was in leaflet from Ifor Williams but I'm in a hotel tonight and using my 'phone for internet access so I can't find the leaflet on their web site. Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Nick, you are incorrect. the DVLA website details the regulations, as discussed above. 750Kg is not the absolute limit. Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM. So, given that the OP has a 90, with a MAM/GVW of 2400 Kg, it is permitted to tow a trailer of 1100 Kg MAM, which is greater than 750Kg. If we were discussing a 110, the above would not apply, as the joint MAM is over 3500 Kg, so the trailer can only be 750Kg. Finding a trailer which is near to, but plated at 1100 Kg or less, is the challenge! Luke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UdderlyOffroad Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Without B + E you can only tow an unbraked trailer with a maximum loaded weight of 750kg. IANAL but I don't think you're correct there. The leaflet you mention is here: linky Which offers this little nugget: A vehicle with an unladen weight of 1250kg and a MAMof 2000kg, towing a trailer with a MAM of 1000kg could be driven by a category B licence holder. This is because the combined MAM of the vehicle and trailer does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I was led to believe that you can 'replate' a trailer to a lower figure, i.e. max wieght including load (MAM?) 750KG. Then your good to go as long as it does actually weigh in at 705KG or less including load. When you pass you trialer test just do another to suit what you can tow then (as long as it is less than or equal to the trialer design load). Problem solved. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I stand corrected. The actual requirement is described here. Which does beg the question as to why I have just paid for one of my employees to get their E license... As regards re-plating the trailer, this certainly used to be one solution, and it's probably still doable, but be wary of the fact that as of last october the Whole Vehicle Type Approval Directive starts to come in, and this will require type approval of all trailers used for normal road operations. There is no exclusion for home made trailers, which I am sure will sooner or later be interpreted to mean that you can't re-plate a trailer at will either. At present the rules only apply to new designs of trailer, and I doubt that the traffic feds are looking for type approval marks yet, but it will come. Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I had this headache a while ago My conclusion was just do the kin test and be done with it No ifs and ars and listening to people debating it or listening to different police officers saying different things Get the test done and then its done with Tow what you like aslong as its within the legal limits Just my opinion as this comes up quite often Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbadger Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Withams quote the Mk111 disc braked Sankey as being 373kg empty and having a payload capcity of 3/4 ton (762kg), so the MAM in standard form would be 1135kg, so not far off your required 1100kg in reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Tonkin Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Thanks all, I know this subject always stirs up a hornets nest! The caravan and horse forums are full of the same arguments! It is a very poorly communicated and even lest well thought out law. The 750Kg MAM for an unbraked trailer in my favourite. If the defender had a GVW of 3500Kg I could still tow a 750Kg unbraked trailer but to tow a braked trailer of the same weight would not be allowed. I could tow a bigger braked trailer with my Vectra than I can with my Defender implying the Vectra is safer towing vehicle because it is lighter, still heavier that the trailer but a train weight less than 3500Kg. So my plan is to go off to a weigh bridge towing the Sankey to find out it's weight then re-plate for a lower payload until the test is done. Of course when I pick it up I'll stick some L plates on it and ask my Great Aunt to sit in the passenger seat because then i'll be all legal..bonkers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Philip, I am going to Withams to pick one up on Saturday, so if you buy one before then I could chuck it on the top and bring it back as far as Henley if that helps? Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j90 mud Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 on a positive note have you actually weighed your landy? as there are none that i know that weigh the figure you have quoted.bear in mind if vosa stop you and weigh you .it will be as you are, loaded empty or otherwise. if you are over weight, or unlicensed they will usuallly sieze the vehicle. best bet is to get a lesson or two and pass the test.its not that hard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Tonkin Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Philip, I am going to Withams to pick one up on Saturday, so if you buy one before then I could chuck it on the top and bring it back as far as Henley if that helps? Jason. A very kind offer, thank you but I have been told by my wife in no uncertain terms that I must first sell my MG to make room for any new project. If anyone wants an MG ZR with less than 30k for silly little money before Friday I may take you up on that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Tonkin Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 on a positive note have you actually weighed your landy? as there are none that i know that weigh the figure you have quoted.bear in mind if vosa stop you and weigh you .it will be as you are, loaded empty or otherwise. if you are over weight, or unlicensed they will usuallly sieze the vehicle. best bet is to get a lesson or two and pass the test.its not that hard I am not burdened with heavy kit so the kerb weight is pretty standard. No cage, winches, boxes, seats etc etc. One of the main reasons for the trailer is to keep my camping kit ready to roll without having to haul it in (or on) the 90 day in day out. The tow vehicle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 now as the lovely dvla person on the end of the pone told me the other day the trailer alone must weigh 250kg or less which means u can basically tow a wheely bin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Tonkin Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 now as the lovely dvla person on the end of the pone told me the other day the trailer alone must weigh 250kg or less which means u can basically tow a wheely bin. I can only assume that this call centre numpty has been give a script which tries to simplify the unbraked trailer rules. Probably sponsored by Halfords.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Range Rover Blues Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 It doesn't matter what your landie weighs empty, it's the maximum weight as stated by the manufacturer that counts, so it doesn't matter if you have bolted stuff to it or the chassis is full of mud. Anyone can tow a trailer of up to 750kg, braked or unbraked. As the law does not require brakes for trailers below this figure none are built with brakes, they cost money and eat into the weight limit. Out of interest you can drive a vehicle with a MAM of 3,500kg plus a tail-lift of 750kg or less for wheelchairs, obvioulsy this prevents you coupling a trailer. Without cat E you can tow a trailer that weighs less when full than your car weighs empty, based on the manufacturer's declared weights, provided that the car full plus the trailer full do not exceed 3,500kg ie the train weight and the car manufacturer says you can couple a trailer that heavy, the maximum trailer weight as declared by the manufacturer in the handbook or chassis plate of the car. So the example of the Vectra being a "better" tow car is indeed true (clearly not sensible). One exception to the rules is that if the trailer is plated with a MAM ie weight full that exceeds the car's towing ability then you can load the trailer up to the car's towing limit (getting it weighed is a good idea) BUT the plated weight is still enforceable as far as licence provision goes, in fact it's illegal for you to tow the Sankey whilst it's empty. So the question can you simply replate the trailer? well that's a tricky one. Originaly it wasn't built to satisfy the C&U regs anyway, the military certainly used to be exempt, but the phrase I am familiar with is "constructed or signifiacanlty modyfied" and as that was after 1986 then it has to comply with the regs. As you are lowering the weight there is no issue of strength or fitness for purpose and I would have thought it would be ok, but as we know the law isn't that sensible is it? I would try ringing Towsure's technical advice line, they are very well informed (obvioulsy) and better in my experience than many clubs and magazines. One final warning, you said about getting your aunt to sit in with you? sorry but the grandfather rights to accompany learners were closed last April so unless she has taken the test she can no longer sit beside you, she would have to drive the Landie for you and because it is not a car she might not be able to do that on her insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Tonkin Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 One final warning, you said about getting your aunt to sit in with you? sorry but the grandfather rights to accompany learners were closed last April so unless she has taken the test she can no longer sit beside you, she would have to drive the Landie for you and because it is not a car she might not be able to do that on her insurance. Now that is a completely new one on me I had not realised that! Very useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Has anyone got a link to that changed grandfather rights/sitting in stuff? sounds ridiculous, dad's been towing for 40 years, and wouldn't be able to sit by me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L19MUD Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 as far as I am aware this new rule which came out in April 2010 only affects C1 and D1 (7.5 ton trucks and minibuses) There is no mention of this affecting B+E anywhere I can see on the direct.gov site http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Drivingforaliving/DG_182840 All in all its an absolute nightmare!! under the post 1997 rules you can drive a tractor and trailer up to 24ton gross, but not a mini digger behind a landy or a 7.5 ton truck. Does not make sense to me! As its such a joke and I want to drive 7.5 tonners with a trailer on, I decided to bite the bullet last year and do my full HGV C+E, fairly spendy but as i'm only 26 I think i will get enough benefit from it in my lifetime. As a result of these stupid laws we had the following situation last year . . . 7.5 Ton Bedford TK tipper which I couldnt drive at the time and had to be moved from farm to farm as the brakes were seized. Top speed 45mph (down a hill with the winf behind etc etc!!) We picked it up using a Fastrack and Cheifton trailer, which is obviously much bigger, but still manages 42mph, and is legal for anyone to drive on a normal car license (Ignoring potential issues re tractors for farm use only etc etc. Doesnt make much sense to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractorboy16 Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Still, when i rocked up with the fastrac we were the nuts and did cause a few heads to turn!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Updating the rules is OK, but making it confusing to figure out what you can & can't drive is damn stupid & creates more unnecessary problems/paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmerboy_y2k Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Has anyone got a link to that changed grandfather rights/sitting in stuff? sounds ridiculous, dad's been towing for 40 years, and wouldn't be able to sit by me! I was under the impression that was only changed in relation to vehicles over 3.5t and Didn't effect older drivers with B+E entitlement sitting in with someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I was under the impression that was only changed in relation to vehicles over 3.5t and Didn't effect older drivers with B+E entitlement sitting in with someone. refer to the link above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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