Smokey 300 tdi

[PaulN]

I hope this is allowed - to link to a thread on Disco forum that is - otherwise I may miss out on valuable suggestions from the Defender Boys about what to do next about my 300.

There has to be something else Linky

[Phil Wilson]

I can't tell from the thread, but did you replace the valve stem oil seals? I have exactly the same problem and Dunsfold LandRover told me the other day it would be the stem seals. I'm just waiting for a free weekend to do them.

[PaulN]

I can't tell from the thread, but did you replace the valve stem oil seals? I have exactly the same problem and Dunsfold LandRover told me the other day it would be the stem seals. I'm just waiting for a free weekend to do them.

Thanks for reply - No haven't as there's white smoke not blue. Not using oil. It's only at cold start up too and even then it's only for a mile. Serious smoking non-the-less.

Would have thought if it were the valve seals it would smoke all the time?

Does this still describe your symptoms - if so then maybe the inlet valve stems are the culprits - dunno!

[Phil Wilson]

Thanks for reply - No haven't as there's white smoke not blue. Not using oil. It's only at cold start up too and even then it's only for a mile. Serious smoking non-the-less.

Would have thought if it were the valve seals it would smoke all the time?

Does this still describe your symptoms - if so then maybe the inlet valve stems are the culprits - dunno!

It's exactly the same symptoms mate. DLR said the oil seeps down past the seals when the engine is at rest and cold, the oil burns off when you start it and it gets up to temp. The other options is turbo bearing, but you've already checked that.

[cackshifter]

Once you've got some boost it's trying to blow up the guides, so would tend to keep the oil out, hence smoke clears once started. One other possible thing re the white smoke, have you checked compressions - maybe one or more are down until things have warmed up. I think if you had more than 1 duff cylinder it might struggle to start, but maybe one doesn't have too much compression, once it has warmed maybe something closes.

[Last]

If the exhaust billows white smoke for a few seconds when first starting the engine after it has been sitting for a while, such as overnight, and then runs normally, it could mean that the rubber valve stem seals have perished - especially if the vehicle is a few years old

It must be something like this or in a very rare cases one of the valve guide.

had it ones with a 2.5 diesel (78000km) and ones with 300tdi (127000km)

i have seen you list of work done and there is not much left,

[PaulN]

It's exactly the same symptoms mate. DLR said the oil seeps down past the seals when the engine is at rest and cold, the oil burns off when you start it and it gets up to temp.

Point taken but wouldn't that be blue smoke?

Most guys are saying valve stem seals too and so even though I reckon that'd give blue AND I reckon all the time but it can't be dismissed given descriptions just given.

I do hear what you're saying.

Thinking - posting a vid might help!

Compression test says all okay by the way and 85,000 miles done.

[Last]

Only blue smoke if there is more oil,we are talking about a drop or sweating,it is so little I don't thing you will see this on a compress test.

[rusty_wingnut]

check the timing?

[PaulN]

check the timing?

Thanks. How can you check the timing?

New timing belt just fitted. However, I am going to read up how one get set injector timing to 10 degrees as that's apparently better for the 300tdi but how you do it when the pump body doesn't rotate I don't know. So as far as static timing is concerned - spot on I guess. Performance is good, pulls well, engine sounds good, tick over good.

[PaulN]

This is a cold start the next morning after getting back from the garage - seems we've fixed it!

300.mov

[CwazyWabbit]

Maybe it's my monitor but it looks a bit blue to me. What did you try at the garage?

[Bullyjohn]

I was going to suggest glows - but searching back you have done that check. The only suggestion I have is that you aren't getting good atomisation of the fuel from start - based on the notes/posts I read to date. My thinking is similar to one of the other posts - if you are getting air or poor pressure to the inj's then the combustion is poor - hence puffing /misfire and white smoke .. Then perhaps as you rev beyond a certain point the pump manages to make enough pressure to give good combustion..

The question is why...?

I am not absolutely familiar with the fuel circuit on the Landies - but as a thought is there a recirc valve operating in wam up mode ? - some times the fuel circuits have one to help warm the fuel up during cold running?

The air ingress one is a good theory also - I have seen this on other vehicles ( not landies ) and it does give this symptom.. if you add this to a recirc valve then the is a chance that the air takes a long while to go around until its all gone.. Also air in the ciruit means you will get some misifre.. Which sounds like you have from the video..

having said that glows would have been my first bet ...

good luck.

[PaulN]

I was going to suggest glows - but searching back you have done that check. The only suggestion I have is that you aren't getting good atomisation of the fuel from start - based on the notes/posts I read to date. My thinking is similar to one of the other posts - if you are getting air or poor pressure to the inj's then the combustion is poor - hence puffing /misfire and white smoke .. Then perhaps as you rev beyond a certain point the pump manages to make enough pressure to give good combustion..

The question is why...?

I am not absolutely familiar with the fuel circuit on the Landies - but as a thought is there a recirc valve operating in wam up mode ? - some times the fuel circuits have one to help warm the fuel up during cold running?

The air ingress one is a good theory also - I have seen this on other vehicles ( not landies ) and it does give this symptom.. if you add this to a recirc valve then the is a chance that the air takes a long while to go around until its all gone.. Also air in the ciruit means you will get some misifre.. Which sounds like you have from the video..

having said that glows would have been my first bet ...

good luck.

Thanks for replies - been away - sorry for delay.

I too was absolutely sure that it was something to do with a cold start device (CSD) which varies from one bosch pump to another (vaccuum, bimetalic, solonoid actuate etc) and as mine is apparently a Bosch R509 it is entirely mechanical I thought I'd look it up and found some info on it. Pump came off (along with injectors) and went to Bosch Speciolalists and were tested and in the case of the pump was refurbed. Absolutely no difference.

What you describe is apparently what's happening but I thought the pump refurb would have dealt with that issue.

Yes ther is definitely a missing during the first mile but ok when warm - how can the air get in if there's no fuel leak?

Yes there is a tinge of blue but nothing that worries me - that's why I don't think it's valve stems but we may do those if we can't suss the cause.

Another thread on this forum said white smoke only at cold start up was fixed by a turbo change even though the original did not appear worn at all??

We've changed fuel filters, air filters, tried alternative injectors from a known non smoker, tested and re-furbed pump and injectors, new copper washers, changed source of fuel, additives to clean, new timing belt and therefor timing, checked valve clearances, tested compression, checked glows, bled fuel lines.

It only does it from cold and will oblige without being moved as per video.

Beginning to mass opinions;

Turbo seals

Valve stem seals (blue?)

Head gasket slight leak when cold

Just thought - not checked vaccuum tube from turbo to pump for integrity!

I still think CSD - will have to speak to Bosch people....

Performance and economy good!!!

I don't know.......

[dailysleaze]

That looks very blue to me. Anyone else?!?

At this point when it's revved, there's a mix of blue and dark grey smoke - air starvation with burning oil?

Something's happening in there which doesn't burn well. Either fuel, air or heat, and you've had most of the fuel system/timing checked, so I would take the intercooler to manifold hose off thus eliminating the turbo and making sure it's not air related. 300Tdi will start without glow plugs easily at this time of year so the other defining factor on heat is compression, which is okay.

Otherwise the only other related elements in there are oil and water, and it doesn't look like steam. Valve stem seals seem an overwhelming possibility due this only happening from cold.

[PaulN]

That looks very blue to me. Anyone else?!?

At this point when it's revved, there's a mix of blue and dark grey smoke - air starvation with burning oil?

Something's happening in there which doesn't burn well. Either fuel, air or heat, and you've had most of the fuel system/timing checked, so I would take the intercooler to manifold hose off thus eliminating the turbo and making sure it's not air related. 300Tdi will start without glow plugs easily at this time of year so the other defining factor on heat is compression, which is okay.

Otherwise the only other related elements in there are oil and water, and it doesn't look like steam. Valve stem seals seem an overwhelming possibility due this only happening from cold.

Thanks for picking up - another diagnosis for valve seals then after turbo pipe off test today.

Your isolated frames do indeed show a bit blue but what's a bit of oil between friends?!

The other 99 per cent is expelling copious clean white smoke - can all of this white be stem seals and can all of this be finding its way back up stems and also when stationary?

When I look at my own video I think that it looks and sounds like one cylinder is not 'firing', so to speak, so the somewhat heated diesel is being ejected

[PaulN]

Took inter-cooler hose to inlet manifold off - cold started - no difference!

From cold start she starts first time and idles evenly - it's only when you get to 1500 rpm - 2000 rpm does she billow and runs very lumpily. Back down to tick-over and she's all stable and even again.

Over 2000 no smoke!

None of this when at normal operating temperature.

[Scott R]

Have you checked the heater plugs? Looking back through you only say that they were new bosch items not long ago and that the relay is on for 30 seconds, this doesn't say that each one actually works.

Someone said that 300's don't need heater plugs to start this time of year, they don't always, but they do need to be on after starting (30 seconds) to aid warm up otherwise the fuel doesn't burn properly, resulting in smoke.

[JimAttrill]

My 300tdi used to smoke like that when cold. When I did a compression check one cylinder was down to about 12bar instead of the 21 it should be. The others were 15-16. The bad compression was caused by worn bores, and the worn bores were caused by using a K&N so-called 'filter' for 50000 miles. The filter has a million mile guarantee, but the engine doesn't . I fixed it by honing the bores and changing the rings. The valve stem oil seals were changed at the same time. As this was done 90000 miles ago it was successful.

[rusty_wingnut]

Thanks. How can you check the timing?

New timing belt just fitted. However, I am going to read up how one get set injector timing to 10 degrees as that's apparently better for the 300tdi but how you do it when the pump body doesn't rotate I don't know. So as far as static timing is concerned - spot on I guess. Performance is good, pulls well, engine sounds good, tick over good.

If a new belt has just been fitted I would strongly suggest rechecking the timing is correct as per Les Henson's guide in the tech archive.

[Bullyjohn]

Paul, echoing Scott's question - did you actually make sure each and every glow plug is getting hot.. It only takes one not working to make some smoke - also might tie up with the lumpy running..?

You have eliminated the T/c seals with you hose disconnect test - so regards Oil burning you only have the valve stems seals left as potential culprits ( assuming you compressions check out okay)

I can't help still thinking its fuel - since you seem to be making one hell of a lot of smoke...

I can relate some work on a different vehicle where we had a rough idle/misfire at part /mid load and lots and lots of smoke - similar to yours..- however this was temps of around 5-10 C.... This was on a common rail engine with pilot injection and main injection - we fixed it with fuelling pattern changes - turns out the piot was too small in this case..

All of this isn't directly applicable except to show that the cold advance could cause the smoke quite easily if you are mistimed.. Once the engine is hot it will become more forgiving of mis timing - you just loose some power and maybe run hotter ?

Checking timing is worth a shot next I would say....

[PaulN]

Paul, echoing Scott's question - did you actually make sure each and every glow plug is getting hot.. It only takes one not working to make some smoke - also might tie up with the lumpy running..?

You have eliminated the T/c seals with you hose disconnect test - so regards Oil burning you only have the valve stems seals left as potential culprits ( assuming you compressions check out okay)

I can't help still thinking its fuel - since you seem to be making one hell of a lot of smoke...

I can relate some work on a different vehicle where we had a rough idle/misfire at part /mid load and lots and lots of smoke - similar to yours..- however this was temps of around 5-10 C.... This was on a common rail engine with pilot injection and main injection - we fixed it with fuelling pattern changes - turns out the piot was too small in this case..

All of this isn't directly applicable except to show that the cold advance could cause the smoke quite easily if you are mistimed.. Once the engine is hot it will become more forgiving of mis timing - you just loose some power and maybe run hotter ?

Checking timing is worth a shot next I would say....

Thanks for all input Guys - quite a list to do / re do.

Check all the glow plugs for red

Check timing (read up)

Double check compressions and note values (does it matter if they are not cold readings?)

Valve stem seals

Just thinking If the lift pump was duff in that the valve that stops fuel leaking back to the tank did allow it to leak back - might that cause this by drawing air in?

Just a thought

[chrisbowler]

What if one cylinder pressure was below the point that diesel detonates and as the engine warms up, that cylinder misfires until it gets the correct compression pressure - by this time any fuel being injected will generate white smoke rather than heat and power. Once then engine has reached a temperature, that cylinder begins to perform correctly.

What pressure/ temperature does diesel detonate at?

Chris Bowler

[Phil Wilson]

What pressure/ temperature does diesel detonate at?

Chris Bowler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point#Examples_of_flash_points

[dailysleaze]

Your isolated frames do indeed show a bit blue but what's a bit of oil between friends?!

Sorry, didn't mean to be condescending! It's just that the gauge of what is "blue" is very subjective.

If it is mostly white then the diagnosis it's back to fuel (although there's nothing to say that there may not be multiple things at play ), so as others have said an incomplete burn in a particular cylinder(s) fits well.