going HID but just to clarify..

[Landy-Novice]

hello, i want to install HID's to my defender but i think its illegal but i just want it confirmed just to make sure..

this is what im after.. http://www.paddocksp...hi-lo-beam.html

and it clearly states in the title "conversion" which means to replacing somethink with anoteh non original item. no? so how can they state that knowing full well that its illegal? surely that's mid-advertising? so i looked on the DFT for the answer..and found this.

"In the Department for Transport's (DfT) view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps."

which i assume means you have to install the FULL kit, which is simple enough. then it continues to say

"However DfT does not think it reasonable simply to ban HID in the aftermarket. Instead the Department makes analogies with new vehicles. It seems reasonable to require HID in the aftermarket to meet the same safety standards as those for new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply"

which to reads that they accept aftermarket but must be ece approved but then you say this.

1, Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-leveling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.

2, The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly in the same way as any other headlamp

so can i just follow rule 2 instead of 1? as basically its the exact same thing? or does it have to be self leveling? which unless the kit contains the part for this function, its not a conversion is it?? i know the self leveling kit is £370+ but no way is that affordable..

so i assume this isn't a road legal modification? i personally dont see why if they got the right pattern i dont see the problem..

just wonder if someone can clarify that for me? :)

[=jon=]

It's a bit of a grey area, and reasonably dependant on how strict your mot tester is. I know of people who have aftermarket HID kits in their cars, some have passed with no issues, some get a telling off and an advisory for beam pattern, some get failed for not having the proper kit.

To be fair to paddock, it does say: "NOTE: This kit is both CE and E approved. However, Xenon Headlights conversion kits are only road legal if used with automatic levelling and headlight washing system."

I'm not sure about the paddock kit, but there are several types of H4 HID bulb - ones that have a combo halogen lamp in for high beam (very carp), ones that have a small motor / solenoid to change the position of the bulb to simiulate high/low (carp) and ones that have dual elements in, one for high and one for low (more expensive as you need 2x ignitor per side)..

*edit* - just re-read it, the paddock kit has a halogen bulb in there too. In that case it's a very crappy kit and should be avoided... You can get a proper hi/lo kit from ebay - see http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-90-50W-H4-HID-Conversion-kit-/220636954179?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item335efcbe43

One thing though, nearly all factory HID kits use projector lights to give a clear beam pattern - the ones with the big glass bubble in the lens - these give a very clear focussed beam with loads of light below and a defined line of darkness above. If you whack a HID kit in a standard reflector lens the light goes all over the place, you will likely dazzle everyone oncoming and get flashed all of the time, especially on something with reasonably high lights like a defender... I had a set for a while (same as the kit in the link above) in my old Hilux and had to take them out as they would blind everyone coming towards me - they were dangerous.

I'd personally spend the money on a set of the wipac clear lensed lights (with the shaped reflector for the beam pattern), some decent bulbs (osram nightbreaker or similar) and a relay kit to get the most out of the standard lamps. If that's not enough then some driving lights with HID retrofitted for additional full beam

[Scooby Jim]

Be careful. I had H4 hi-lo in my Classic Impreza, and the loom caught fire.

The headlamp hi-lo controller has twin +ve feed to it, and if water gets in (like mine), then the wiring shorts and the fuses one for each side do not blow so it catches fire. I luckily smelt the wiring going, and managed to rip the earths off so it stopped the problem.

But the H4 ones do give a decent cut off as the bulb sits in a shroud, and fires back and fore to do high and low beam.

For MOT they can ONLY test what is there, so if you have no levellers or washers then they can`t test them.

The major downfall is cut off of the beam, as the centre point of the brightest part of the bulb will be in a slightly different place from Halogen to HID, so the cut off will be slightly different, its all a matter of how much out.

[ejparrott]

But, as levellers are required for them to be legal, does that not mean a fail for them being, shall we say incomplete. and as such illegal?

[Scooby Jim]

But, as levellers are required for them to be legal, does that not mean a fail for them being, shall we say incomplete. and as such illegal?

As far as I understand its like this. The OEM ones have to have levellers and washers to be legal, if you retro fit HID/Xenons then you don`t have to have the levellers and washers as they weren`t fitted as standard. And if you do fit them then they MUST work.

Here is the MOT manual, not sure if its been amended since.

[ejparrott]

It does say 'may' be fitted with headlamp washers etc.....

[Landy-Novice]

so if i was to fit HID lights and print scobby jim's document snippet and show the MOT man, i should be laughing like a girl?

but in all fairness, hes a good MOT guy who wont crucify it. but i have just discovered angel lights with +130% bulbs..

[Scooby Jim]

It does say 'may' be fitted with headlamp washers etc.....

Exactly, it doesn't say MUST. So if they aren't fitted you can`t fail.

If they are fitted and don't work, then that is a fail.

[Scooby Jim]

so if i was to fit HID lights and print scobby jim's document snippet and show the MOT man, i should be laughing like a girl?

but in all fairness, hes a good MOT guy who wont crucify it. but i have just discovered angel lights with +130% bulbs..

I have the full test on PDF if you want it??

But should be fine my Vectra and my Impreza had them. But now I have Halfords 130watt/90watt H4 bulbs

[CwazyWabbit]

Maybe the levellers or washing system are actually a C & U requirement? Might be worth checking.....

[landroversforever]

A mate had his navara failed for having HIDs fitted. The MOT manual must have been changed as he was failed for not having the leveling.

[Landy-Novice]

A mate had his navara failed for having HIDs fitted. The MOT manual must have been changed as he was failed for not having the leveling.

thats weird, maybe a fussy MOT man?

all my research says that its fine to fit the bulb, but its the housing thats the issue as it needs to be a projector lenses, not reflector lenses.

but as it states above, self levelers MAY be fitted which theoretically means this is the answer... http://www.sickhids....cts/show/653478

(advice, mute the video..)

[David Sparkes]

Appreciate the advice about setting the sound level.

The visual revealed a lot, being all about how the lights looked to an outsider, with SFA about beam pattern, horizontal cut-off, etc.

Personally, I drive vehicles, if I'm going to 'improve' the lights I want them to enhance my driving experience.

Based on my own experience sitting behind HIDs in a car with self levelling, having HID dip beam is a waste of money. So you get enough light to turn black tarmac 'almost white', but a decent standard headlight will give enough light for the purpose anyway.

What is the point in throwing out so much light if:

A/ It causes your iris to close down, so your vision into the shadows is impaired.

B/ Reflections from road signs and other reflective surfaces become so bright they are painful, with the same negative side effect.

C/ There is more light reflected back off fog and mist, meaning you are less able to see 'through' the fog, instead you are just driving into a wall of cotton wool.

Keep the HID for main beam, where IF the beam control is any good, the extra light can be spread over a wider area.

In reality, the likelihood is that the beam is concentrated into a long narrow area, which is fine until the road curves out of the illuminated area, which happens quite a lot in this part of the country. This means you need to be able to 'see into the shadows', which brings me back to the disadvantage I mentioned earlier.

HTH.

[ejparrott]

Appreciate the advice about setting the sound level.

A/ It causes your iris to close down, so your vision into the shadows is impaired.

This means you need to be able to 'see into the shadows', which brings me back to the disadvantage I mentioned earlier.

You'd be suprised how many people don't consider this. As a railway fireman, I can tell you just how important it is, and its for this reason that should I need to see anything on the footplate at night, I will use a red light to see by, not a white. Using a white light will destroy the drivers night vision for minutes, should he catch it, red will not.

Now I've seen the video, I know what you're talking about exactly.

Thats those damn headlights that people keep fitting, blinding me from in front and behind every time I go out in the country, 'cos they can't be bothered to sort the alignment out properly on the 'screw you Jack, I'm ok' philosophy - don't fit them!

[tacr2man]

Couple of things , fitting HID without levelling and washing will be a fail , if the tester is doing his job properly , some wont be so take your chance !

Its not just the MOT tester that sees your lights , eg oncoming police cars , Vosa VI and VE,s that can if dazzled by your lights take the required action .

If your vehicle has the option on another version of same model then you can quite legally retrofit , IF you use the whole required equipment , and not be at risk of the HID burning a hole in your wallet and licence . HTSH

BTW the imbalance between a very powerful high beam light set including auxillary Bull lights , and switching back to the less intense obligatory pair of dipped lights is well known in Australia where you can be running on mains for hours and then have to dip , they call it "Black Hole effect" and it can be quite disconserting !!

[SteveG]

If your vehicle has the option on another version of same model then you can quite legally retrofit.

Just an FYI - this is incorrect. You can legally retrofit High Intensity lights (HID's and LED's) to any vehicle as long you follow guidelines. It's a complete headlamp unit designed for High Intensity and you have both self levelling and lense cleaning.

So for example retrofitting high intensity headlamp units to a classic range rover with existing air suspension and headlamp washers would be perfectly legal.

Failure to have any of these three and its illegal. There is no grey area. As an example if someone were to have an accident, where it was claimed that they dazzled the oncoming traffic, they would be liable to prosecution and their insurance company would take a dim view of them fitting an illegal aftermarket accessory and as such not pay out. Even worse if there was a fatality due to accident, they'd be most likely spending a few years in prison.

So it's not just an MOT failure at stake if you go down this route.

[Scooby Jim]

Just an FYI - this is incorrect. You can legally retrofit High Intensity lights (HID's and LED's) to any vehicle as long you follow guidelines. It's a complete headlamp unit designed for High Intensity and you have both self levelling and lense cleaning.

So for example retrofitting high intensity headlamp units to a classic range rover with existing air suspension and headlamp washers would be perfectly legal.

Failure to have any of these three and its illegal. There is no grey area. As an example if someone were to have an accident, where it was claimed that they dazzled the oncoming traffic, they would be liable to prosecution and their insurance company would take a dim view of them fitting an illegal aftermarket accessory and as such not pay out. Even worse if there was a fatality due to accident, they'd be most likely spending a few years in prison.

So it's not just an MOT failure at stake if you go down this route.

I have had HIDS in previous cars and with standard lights, I used H7R and H4 hi/lo. And the MOT man said NOTHING about no auto levellers or headlamp washers as the were NOT fitted, and also were never there in the first place.

The beam cut offs were within tolerance (at the time) as the bulbs had covers over so weren't plain bulbs (which spread the light everywhere).

I even had the police pull my mate over (both side by side on a dual carriageway) as his Audi (OEM) xenons were blinding him, and mine were "Absolutely fine".

A mate had his navara failed for having HIDs fitted. The MOT manual must have been changed as he was failed for not having the leveling.

They can only fail if the levellers are there and NOT working.

[SteveG]

Look it's quite clear what the instructions from VOSA say. It's only legal to retrofit High Intensity headlamps if its a complete unit designed for high intensity and both self levelling and headlamp washers are fitted.

Otherwise it's illegal. If you choose to ignore that, that's your prerogative.

[Scooby Jim]

Look it's quite clear what the instructions from VOSA say. It's only legal to retrofit High Intensity headlamps if its a complete unit designed for high intensity and both self levelling and headlamp washers are fitted.

Otherwise it's illegal. If you choose to ignore that, that's your prerogative.

I put up the MOT manual, where does Vosa actually say that??

[CwazyWabbit]

You are both right apparently.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/35636/watchdog-unfair-mot-failures

[Scooby Jim]

You are both right apparently.

http://www.autoexpre...ir-mot-failures

Key quote is

A spokesman for VOSA denied that this was the case. He said: “If a car has the washing and self-levelling system then we’ll check it and it will need to be in full working order. If it’s not there, we don’t check it – we give the owner the benefit of the doubt.”

[SteveG]

You are both right apparently.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/35636/watchdog-unfair-mot-failures

Scooby Jim is wrong, and actually if you read the article you referenced it states that DVA is not planning to change regulations, irrespective of quote from VOSA spokesperson.

I put up the MOT manual, where does Vosa actually say that??

Here you go. There is no ambiguity...

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf

FYI - you seem to be confusing the MOT test with the legality of a vehicle. The MOT test an annual road worthiness check against current MOT guidelines. A vehicle that passes an MOT test is not automatically considered road legal. There are a whole series of Road Vehicle regulations that determine whether a car is road legal.

It doesn't matter whether an individual car passes the MOT or even if the MOT tests for them, the fact is if you don't fit aftermarket High intensity headlamps in accordance with the guidelines linked above your car will be illegal. That's the currently legal status.

I hope this clears up the matter, as it's really straight forward and simple to understand.

[Scooby Jim]

Scooby Jim is wrong, and actually if you read the article you referenced it states that DVA is not planning to change regulations, irrespective of quote from VOSA spokesperson.

Here you go. There is no ambiguity...

http://assets.dft.go...d-headlamps.pdf

FYI - you seem to be confusing the MOT test with the legality of a vehicle. The MOT test an annual road worthiness check against current MOT guidelines. A vehicle that passes an MOT test is not automatically considered road legal. There are a whole series of Road Vehicle regulations that determine whether a car is road legal.

It doesn't matter whether an individual car passes the MOT or even if the MOT tests for them, the fact is if you don't fit aftermarket High intensity headlamps in accordance with the guidelines linked above your car will be illegal. That's the currently legal status.

I hope this clears up the matter, as it's really straight forward and simple to understand.

Point 1. DVA is the Northern Ireland (Driving Vehicle Agency) http://www.dvani.gov.uk/ And is NOT VOSA or the DVLA but a separate entity with separate rules, that do not apply to UK (mainland) road users.

Point 2. The link you provided is NOT a statement of Law or compliance, it is a view that they SHOULD be illegal and it is their VIEW that you should fit a new complete lamp if you want Xenons. That link you posted was banded about on car forums ages ago, before the current MOT handbook came out, and was never put into legislation or practice, but a typical scare tactic. All they did was amend the beam pattern in the MOT test that made most HID kits illegal, as their pattern was out of tolerance so cars failed. Which due to the carp beam pattern I totally agree with.

They also state "For the aftermarket, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because this only applies to new vehicles. However DfT does not think it reasonable simply to ban HID in the aftermarket. Instead the Department makes analogies with new vehicles. It seems reasonable to require HID in the aftermarket to meet the same safety standards as those for new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply."

The MOT was tightened up to address the HID headlight issue, and specifically the glare and incorrect beam pattern. As the MOT is the governments way of making sure each road vehicle is LEGAL for use, and complies with all current legislation. What is the basis of the checks on an MOT test?? Its checking that components work and adheer to the relevant laws and conditions of use. Take the recent ACE hype about the propsed EU changes due to modifications, it is at the MOT station your car would be deemed fit for road (legally compliant) use or not (illegal).

This is the current beam pattern info.

The legislation is here The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989.

http://www.legislati...schedule/4/made

The other being UNIFORM PROVISIONS CONCERNING THE APPROVAL OF VEHICLES WITH REGARD

TO THE INSTALLATION OF LIGHTING AND LIGHT-SIGNALLING DEVICES

UNITED NATIONS.

http://www.unece.org...regs/r48r6e.pdf

[SteveG]

For the benefit of other forum readers, who maybe persuaded by your claims that it's legal, I'll try one last time as you are obviously failing to grasp this.

Firstly, as said before don't confuse passing an MOT with having a legal car. This is exactly why we have type approval for new cars and SVA for importing or first registering a new car. If you don't accept this tough, as that's how it is.

So on to the Law - did you even bother to properly read the doc I linked too? It appears not going by your red highlights and subsequent comment. The doc clearly refers to what is current UK law.

I'll also spell it out for you, as it appears you're having problems with this. The law bit - The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 are the current enforceable law for vehicle lighting in the UK. HID & LED for that matter are not mentioned as a permitted lighting and are therefore not legally allowed. New vehicles are legal with HID as they are permitted under European type approval and being part of the EU, the UK parliament has agreed to abide by these laws.

So as you can see all lighting not mentioned in The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 is illegal, unless it's for a new car and then EU type approvals will have priority.

Therefore retro fitting HID's to any age of vehicle is not legally permitted in UK. However, as explained in the fact sheet the DfT are willing to accept retro fitting of HID headlamps if they comply with the following quoted from the linked doc...

"1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.

2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).

3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.

In practice this means:

1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to

ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. - who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.

2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self- levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.

3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly in the same way as any other headlamp.

Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.

In summary: it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."

So as you can see it's perfectly clear what the DfT's stance is on this. There's no ambiguity and no room for interpretation on this. Now, as I said before if you want to ignore it, that's your choice, I'm just stating what's legal, not what is right or wrong.

Cheers

[Bowie69]

As the MOT is the governments way of making sure each road vehicle is LEGAL for use, and complies with all current legislation.

Wrong.

The MOT test is just a basic safety check.

An example is found with wheels sticking outside of the wheel arches -this is NOT a testable item, therefore cannot fail the MOT. However, if Mr. Plod stops you you can be prosecuted for a breach of the Construction and Use regulations and slapped with a hefty fine.

HIDs fall under the C&U regulations (prosecutable), but also have a basic safety check within the MOT now (just a failed test).