Extra Engine Cooling Pt 1 - Fans and vents

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hmmmmmmm,

The 90 V8 (Eales 4.5) gets hot - VERY HOT

It gets really really hot when mud plugging in deep sand mud loads of revs and little forward motion, super hot, .......and too hot so something had to be done.

I already have 70% antifreeze, and a BIG 7 row 'supercat' cored larger rad and full cowling & Viscous fan, ...... - but it was not enough

1st step is to get the heat OUT,

when in the mud and goo the undersisde (large area for heat to escape is blocked off, so I have fitted RHS and LHS 'TD' vents, these are intakes, I am using them as "Out" vents :

I have the part numbers for these and the little bushes you'll need to fit, these let out a HUGE amount of heat.

Next was to clear the front end of "Bits on it" ...

this was basically the numberplate (fitted to bonnet now), and the 'marshal' label I have there, a quick measure made me think that these 2 rectangular slabs were blocking more than 1/3 of the front air flow surface area.

then I removed the grill, and the 2 bars :

This then (with a repositioning of the front Hydraulic pipes) - (Erm see drive in last pic ) inc removing the cooler and pipes as not needed - Gave me me an clear area to work on.

A pair of Free 13" Kenlowes sort of sealed the fan options (ta everso Jon W) ....so brackets had to be made up. I did nip into Kenlowe to see what they could offer, -

they had a "Universal fitting kit" - I can tell you right now this is a universal kit - it will universally fit F all .

So armed with some 20x35x2mm angle I fabbed up (read most of a day and a half) a complex but very snug fitting frame :

This was shaped to miss the upper brackets, and also shaped around the Bonnet Slam, lock, .........and the Hyd Hoses ........and PRV on the winch, ..............Hugely time consuming !...

Then where the fans fitted I welded in 5mm bolts so as to have them captive , then the fans (only F Just) slide in and are bolted up into palce.

Jury rigged and tested saw a HUGE movement of air :

A tad of a retrim, number plate onto bonnet and front grill "Just" refits clearing new 2x fans :

Fabrication - takes B ages

Next is the wire it all in Oooer so WVP are getting a call tommorow !

Thought might be of interst, if nothjing else forget Kenlowe fitting kits they offer for a 90 or 110

Nice fans tho B)

Nige

[SHAVED_GORILLA]

Very neat install there Nige.

SG

[geoffbeaumont]

That looks very tidy - hope it sees the end of your overheating problems.

Will that number plate cause you problems with the MOT man? Pretty certain it's strictly speaking illegal, especially with it curved back over the bonnet like that (not easy to read), so probably depends how lenient yours is?

I guess if you do have trouble you might just be able to fit a square plate below one of the headlights?

[TJ101]

Thanks for posting the info Nige,, a job i MUST get sorted, and try to get the temp down a bit !!

[western]

Neat job Nige, can you turn 2 of the pics showing both ends of the fan frame [it'll make more sense] & locate the number plate either on the bumper end blade [rh side] or above the fairlead [don't reckon it'll cause any problem now] & it'll be fully legal/MOT proof.

[Mark]

Nige, Looks very neat as ever. I had a kenlowe on the lightweight, and it did shift some volume!

I have the number plate on the leading edge of the bonnet too, but to be as compliant as I could, I added a proper one to the light bar:

Would there be any mileage in you adding a numberplate to your roll cage cross bar above the windscreen?

Cheers

Mark

[bishbosh]

My front numberplate is a sticky-on one and it has been through several MOT's........

[will_warne]

My front numberplate is a sticky-on one and it has been through several MOT's........

Ditto.

Nige, lovely job. I particularly like what you've done with the wing vents. I've also got simerlar 'issues'. First thing I've done is to use an open cored alloy rad (makes a BIG differance). I've also drilled the bonnet and that helped a lot (6 x 2"). However, I still have issues with shifting air from under the bonnet while driving at speed; the engine bay holds heat like you wouldn't believe! My additional plans are to fit an puller fan on top of the bonnet which has been put together by Allisport. I've also got a new exhaust on the way and this should get rid of gas much faster which, I'm hoping, will make a big differance as well as helping performance. The other job I'm going to do is have Allisoprt knock me up a header tank as I'm not a fan of the plastic 'lets split and dump all our water' OME effort. That should also help loose a little extra heat.

[pugwash]

Thanks for posting the info Nige,, a job i MUST get sorted, and try to get the temp down a bit !!

You so do- i burnt my hand on the bonnet on saturday!

[geoffbeaumont]

My front numberplate is a sticky-on one and it has been through several MOT's........

Okay, ignore me...

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Okay, ignore me...

Eh ? who said that ?

Nige

[imspanners]

Now you've got the side vents, how about using an MGF engine bay fan and under-bonnet temperature sensor to help pull the hot air out of the engine bay??

Or is that OTT?

new one on Ebay

[istruggle2gate11]

I already have 70% antifreeze

Nige

I cant back this up for definate Nige, but a few years back I was having issues cooling a v8 in a series when I happened to say to somebody almost the same thing, I was then told that antifreeze is not as good at cooling than water, he recomended that I just fill with enough anti-freeze to help corrosion and of course adjust accordingly in the winter.

The theory being that antifreeze and summer coolant is just marketing hype.

Cant tell you the result, as I also fitted a new rad etc at the same time, so everything did improve.

[pugwash]

Hey Rog,

I was intrigued by this idea so I went out and did some calculations- they are a bit “A-level” and might be wrong as I haven’t done chemistry for a few years.

But lets presume that a range rover cooling system has 8l capacity. To fill it with water would take 8000g of water as the density is 1g/cm3

The molar mass of water is 18 therefore the number of moles of water in a range rover system filled with water would be 8000/18= 444moles

To fill the system with pure ethylene glycol would take 8800g as the density is 10% higher IIRC.

The molar mass of Ethylene glycol is 62 (if I have worked out the chemical composition right- being a carbon chain the two alcohol groups), therefore the number of moles in a range rover system would be 8800/62= 141ish

So we have 444moles of water and only 141moles of antifreeze.

The heat capacity of water is just 75joules/mole which means the closed system can absorb 444*75= 33300 (33.3kj) Joules before the temperature will increase 1 degree.

The heat capacity of ethylene glycol is 150l/mol, but we only have 141moles. In this case the system would absorb 141*150=21150Joules (21.2KJ) per degree heat change.

This shows that water is 50% better at dealing with energy changes than ethylene glycol.

I “hope” I have got everything right above- I have checked my work a couple of times. There a couple of things I don’t know about- in fluid thermodynamics I have no idea If both liquids will absorb and release energy at the same rate (I wouldn’t think they would be different by 50%!) and I have not taken into account the heat capacity changes under temperature and pressure- this may make a difference if you could run the engine at 180degrees as the antifreeze wouldn’t have boiled by that point. I have tried working out the figures at 95degrees but my brain isn’t functioning very well today so I gave up!

It would seem you were told right!

I do wonder if water wetter would have an effect- it reduces surface tension I presume- I wonder if this leads to better contact with the rad cooling fins? Anyone know?

Who’s going to correct my work first I wonder?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

F

I only asked a simple Q

Nige

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Ill second that....antifreeze is rubbish at getting rid of heat.

The closer you get to pure water the better...there is very little that is better than water for absorbing heat.

[MogLite]

antifreeze is rubbish at getting rid of heat.

Which is completely conflicting info to what I was told in the "MogLite cooling" thread in the International fourm

[FridgeFreezer]

So what does water wetter do for heat dissipation, and is antifreeze 100% ethylene glycol or does it actually have some stuff in it to do what it says on the tin and help as summer coolant?

[pugwash]

Which is completely conflicting info to what I was told in the "MogLite cooling" thread in the International fourm

i'm going to hold my hands up to this- i think i told youthat you needed antifreeze- i had forgotten that 1 mole of antifreeeze is way bigger than 1 mole of water. Sorry mate.

I would say that there could be some big changes to how antifreeze and water absorb energy under heat and pressure- but i don't believe it would overturn my original calculation.

i am sure that there is someone much more knowledgeable around than me.

[pugwash]

i've just done a bit more research and it would seem that my calculations are correct. Water is definitely better than antifreeze.

It would also seem that a good wetting agent would be beneficial- Fairy in your radiator anyone?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Oh Fer Gawds sake.

Please post up detailed instructions of how I get a fairy into my rad.

Do I have to wine and dine him 1st ?

If I rev it over 5500 RPM will he still respect me in the morning ?

Will he get on with both the water mole and the Antifreeze Mole, and if not is that why people fit a water seperator ?

If he brings a friend will that double the cooling ?

Oh Nurse hello, .......my tablets ?

Oh well thankyou

Nige

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Hmmmmmmmmm………………. Moglite may be right …………. Anti freeze is not called antifreeze any more ……….. its called ‘all seasons coolant’………..yes, its does the job of stopping the engine freezing but I seem to remember that it has additives to improve cooling when mixed up to 50% ………the additives and water must form a chemical reaction which is why the 50% limit is placed……….more investigation is required me thinks…………. Google is your friend ………. I’ll have a looky see later.

It also has some form a wetter in it ……….. pour some on the ground and then do another patch of just water ………… the coolant patch will takes days to dry, where as the water patch dries within hours………….. tarmac (like my driveway) is a good test for this.

I got moles on my arms and moles in the garden ........... not so sure if I've heard any in the V8 though

Ian

[HoSS]

I have the part numbers for these and the little bushes you'll need to fit, these let out a HUGE amount of heat.

Yes please, what are the part numbers?

I quite like your fan setup too. might replace my mondeo fan if i can find twin kenlowe/spals for less than 1 arm and 1 leg.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I'm busy at the mo ... but just a quick search produced this ....... a GM coolant,

The boiling point at 15psi with up to a 60% mix is impressive ..........

Also take a look at Fuchs oils ............ they all mention either adequate or improved heat transfer at high engine temps...............http://www.fuchstz.com/pageautomotivespecialties.html

Ian

[pugwash]

Hey ian,

this looks like a pretty standard ethglycol mix as it's specific density is the same as ethylene glycol.

doesn't really say anything about how effective it is at cooling i don't think.

Can someone with a bit more knowledge please post- i'm a bid out of my depth!