Shelly100 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hi I really need some advice , a year ago I bought a defender 90 off a dealer 1994 and have now had a letter off of vosa stating I cannot use the car until it's had an iva. It's been given a new vin number and I'm trying to get iva booked but they want receipts for work done but I bought car asit was and have no receipts . Apparently it was built on seconhand chassis and has to go on q plate ,also having trouble locating engine number . Has anyone else been through this any advice would be gratefully recieved thanks shelly x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Engine number will be on the flat bit on the RH side of the block (looking from the front), Assuming its a LAnd Rover Tdi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I would demand a full refund and return the vehicle to the dealer - it appears they have sold you a ringer, or at least a vehicle that is going to cause a lot of paperwork issues with insurers as well as authorities, pushing up your premiums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelly100 Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Have been in contact with dealer he told me he would get it through iva but then 3 months later nothing , I bought it a year ago Do I still have rights. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Why have they suddenly asked for this, did you submit V5 for changes ? Does the chassis number and V5 chassis number match ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelly100 Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Bought the car nov2013 got a v5c approx 3 months later then 6-7 months later had to go for id check ,chassis number same as on v5c. Then nov 2014 recieved letter from vosa saying recent changes invalidate any previous reg allocated a new vin took it off the road until it's re registered ,stamped with new chassis number, go through iva,etc Don't understand it myself but vosa say at some point it was put on seconhand chassis! Have not made any changes myself . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 You haven't had a falling out with a club member or similar, have you? As Les says, odd that they suddenly start chasing you - I have seen a stitch-up report ruin someone's life and it started a little like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrr47 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Whom is the dealer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Get a solicitor to write to the dealer, they know they have sold a duffer, and need to put it right. I think naming at this point may harm OP's cause, so could be good to leave that for a bit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I'd have to agree with Bowie here, nothing like a solicitors letter to focus the mind somewhat. This shouldn't be your headache. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Jeez mate, bit of a saga for you there mate. I think you need to give us as much detail about the vehicle as you can, and we'll give you as much help as we can. This actually links directly into another thread that's running about the sale of V5's, which is illegal. This is exactly the kind of thing that can happen, and it is exactly prove that the use of a second hand chassis means the loss of the vehicles original identity. Really sorry this has happened to you, we'll help as much as we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 What prompted the VOSA letter? I don't know how much of this you know, but your vehicle is formed of a number of key components which basically give the vehicle it's identity as far as registration numbers are concerned and the age dating of the vehicle. In simple terms you need 8 points to retain a registration plate of the original vehicle. There is a link here https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles At this point you will note that if the vehicle is built on a second hand chassis it is an automatic Q plate. Now I would suggest that in the presence of and discussions with VOSA that you don't refer to it as a second hand chassis unless you know this. This is not deception or something cloak and dagger but are you certain of this? You don't need to self incriminate yourself. The onus is on VOSA to disprove it's the same vehicle. One way to find out is inspect the drivers side chassis rail behind the front wheel between the axle and the bumper. You may need some chalk but there should be a number on the chassis rail. If so I'd suggest writing the number down but don't list it on line the chassis code is listed here http://www.expeditiongear.co.za/cu5/Decoding-your-Land-Rover-VIN-Number.aspx A new replacement chassis won't have a number neither will one that's been ground off. The main bits that have recorded numbers are the chassis and the engine, but the way landrover do the chassis number it also confirms the year of rolling off the assembly line, engine type, body shape and gearbox etc There is also the plate on the brake servo under the bonnet and obviously the registration document. All should align with each other. Hope this helps with some specific guidance I would also recommend that you contact the dealer you bought it from and (if you've not contacted them already) play a bit dumb and let them know that you got a letter and it's contents and see what their response is. Note it down. And calmly let them know that it looks like you are suffering a material financial loss due to the inconviniance of this and because the vehicle is off the road and and test fees and see what they offer you (be calm and note it down whatever there resonse is). Technically (I am fairly sure) you cannot record a phone conversation for later legal use if the other party is not aware but that would just get most peoples back up and you won't get anywhere. Remember you are in the middle and have the most to loose out of this (q plate, fee costs, vehicle off road etc) so sometimes saying less or considering what you say is the best approach until you've a chance to reflect on the position even if you have to come back to someone and give an excuse saying you need to check with someone else or you don't have that info to hand etc (just don't say you need to check with your lawyer or they'll clam up) Due process will take its course in due time. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 .......Technically (I am fairly sure) you cannot record a phone conversation for later legal use if the other party is not aware but that would just get most peoples back up and you won't get anywhere...... Just for clarification Robert the following is from the ofcom website. Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone? Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring are only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication - which can be a phone conversation or an e-mail - are made available to a third party, ie someone who was neither the caller or sender nor the intended recipient of the original communication. For further information see the Home Office website where RIPA is posted. EDIT: The url for above info is http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/consumer/advice/faqs/prvfaq3.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Good find CW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Thanks Barry, much appreciated, in that case record the conversation (I learnt something else today cheers!) Also of note is that most people have some legal advice built into the bank account, credit card, home and or car insurance policy etc... it may be worth a phone call to see if you have such cover and if there is any free advice they can give... Note that these services are usually call center based and will be a very general form of advice, so you probably want to gather from it how to approach the problem, do you need a specialist solicitor (and what sort of solicitor are they) Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrr47 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Get a solicitor to write to the dealer, they know they have sold a duffer, and need to put it right. I think naming at this point may harm OP's cause, so could be good to leave that for a bit Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrr47 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 What prompted the VOSA letter? I don't know how much of this you know, but your vehicle is formed of a number of key components which basically give the vehicle it's identity as far as registration numbers are concerned and the age dating of the vehicle. In simple terms you need 8 points to retain a registration plate of the original vehicle. There is a link here https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles At this point you will note that if the vehicle is built on a second hand chassis it is an automatic Q plate. Now I would suggest that in the presence of and discussions with VOSA that you don't refer to it as a second hand chassis unless you know this. This is not deception or something cloak and dagger but are you certain of this? You don't need to self incriminate yourself. The onus is on VOSA to disprove it's the same vehicle. One way to find out is inspect the drivers side chassis rail behind the front wheel between the axle and the bumper. You may need some chalk but there should be a number on the chassis rail. If so I'd suggest writing the number down but don't list it on line the chassis code is listed here http://www.expeditiongear.co.za/cu5/Decoding-your-Land-Rover-VIN-Number.aspx A new replacement chassis won't have a number neither will one that's been ground off. The main bits that have recorded numbers are the chassis and the engine, but the way landrover do the chassis number it also confirms the year of rolling off the assembly line, engine type, body shape and gearbox etc There is also the plate on the brake servo under the bonnet and obviously the registration document. All should align with each other. Hope this helps with some specific guidance I would also recommend that you contact the dealer you bought it from and (if you've not contacted them already) play a bit dumb and let them know that you got a letter and it's contents and see what their response is. Note it down. And calmly let them know that it looks like you are suffering a material financial loss due to the inconviniance of this and because the vehicle is off the road and and test fees and see what they offer you (be calm and note it down whatever there resonse is). Technically (I am fairly sure) you cannot record a phone conversation for later legal use if the other party is not aware but that would just get most peoples back up and you won't get anywhere. Remember you are in the middle and have the most to loose out of this (q plate, fee costs, vehicle off road etc) so sometimes saying less or considering what you say is the best approach until you've a chance to reflect on the position even if you have to come back to someone and give an excuse saying you need to check with someone else or you don't have that info to hand etc (just don't say you need to check with your lawyer or they'll clam up) Due process will take its course in due time. Rob Wise words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defender dinky Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 tell the dealer you need a another car to run round in while this carp he's put you in is sorted could go on for months(in your case I hope not) he might think twice and accept the landrover back with full refund dd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Have been in contact with dealer he told me he would get it through iva but then 3 months later nothing , I bought it a year ago Do I still have rights. Why did he offer to do that? Do you have it in writing? Makes me wonder how much he knew about the vehicle in the first place? Why have you not chased them up for the IVA? I assume that it isn't your daily driver or you'd have gone as mental as I did having to walk or push bike everywhere, and I did it for 6 months whilst getting my registration sorted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete3000 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 An interesting thread, following Robert's linky to the dvla, there is a section about rebuilt vehicles. So hypothetically speaking if you were contemplating or have done a chassis swap yourself, would you need to submit a v627/1 to the dvla with all the docs etc?. This isn't something i've seen before, but been aware of keeping records and obviously retaining points from original components in case you were ever asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Have been in contact with dealer he told me he would get it through iva but then 3 months later nothing , I bought it a year ago Do I still have rights. Sorry, missed that one. Solicitor advice required, I'd suggest also seeking advice for what they think the process will cost, the time involved and the best you can expect in recovering your monies lost to the dealer and the costs incurred via the IVA in both fees and your lost time. (note there would be some asset depreciation, and you have had some benefit in the use of the asset, so this could be taken off the claim value) I was also once told that you may not get all of your legal fees back despite winning & being awarded costs, so something that you may need to be aware of or ask someone in the know (it was not this sort of claim though). There are three options on the IVA: 1) retain original plate / 2) Q plate / 3) they discover its built of bits and may be stolen (worst case position). The first two you get to retain the vehicle, the latter you don't and you're out of pocket entirely. The first one, you're back where you started and out of pocket just by the IVA process plus your own losses in time, the second one if you resell the asset, it's deciding what the value of the asset with a Q-plate would be against what you paid for it, plus costs incurred in the IVA plus your lost time in the process, plus any legal fees, less a normal degree of depreciation / beneficial use you had. Worth considering all angles and avoiding / being aware of sunk cost effect / cognitive bias (sorry I cant find a decent link, but 10mins on google and you should find something that it explains it for you) (sorry way off topic than a general landrover forum discussion). Some would argue it plays in to the dealer, others that you recoup on your current position, move on and never do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelly100 Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Dealer took car back in November 14 stamped new vin number on chassis then buggered off on holiday till jan15 said he'll sort it then started asking for split in costs said he's put it through mot, not had documents and don't know what reg he's used iva forms were sent off but rejected because not enough info so my partner went and took car back as we had suspicions they may dismantle it luckily it was still complete ( or unluckily) when we bought car the chassis was stamped and the plate in window was the same as v5c it's vosa saying it's been rebuilt on seconhand chassis , it looks fine to me.luckily we have two cars or we would be in trouble. We are in touch with vosa almost daily but even they don't seem to know what each other are doing as we are dealing with rebuilt / kit car dept as well as iva dept just waiting on new forms to come through 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I still find it a bit odd, that its come out of the blue ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 An interesting thread, following Robert's linky to the dvla, there is a section about rebuilt vehicles. So hypothetically speaking if you were contemplating or have done a chassis swap yourself, would you need to submit a v627/1 to the dvla with all the docs etc?. This isn't something i've seen before, but been aware of keeping records and obviously retaining points from original components in case you were ever asked. Nope, if you are replacing it with a new like-for-like chassis there is no complication, and no need to inform them of anything, it is just a replacement part, albeit a big one. However, using a second hand one does trigger all manner of problems. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelly100 Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Thankyou Robertspark I will get my partner to look inspect chassis again and axle/ bumper . We did have a identity check by vosa before were told to get iva so I assume this is how they found it is a secondhand chassis . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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