mercguy
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Posts posted by mercguy
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Without trying to dissuade you or send you on a diagnostic path, there are a few things other than static timing and sensors that you need to check.
1. did you have the distributor apart, did you disassemble, clean relube and reassemble the mech advance? (you should have)
2. the distributor shaft needs to be checked for endplay and side play. this will cause a cycle of "I checked it and there's still a misfire" ignition issues.
3. the hall sensor needs to be checked and the trigger clearance needs to be correctly set, taking into account the freeplay in the shaft.
4. the retainer washer is problematic on the top of the shaft. There is a modification where the top is tapped for an m4 thread and small screw/washer/socket screw is used to fix this and prevent the damage that invariably occurs when an owner tries to remove a rotor that"wont come off the shaft". Ironically it's the attempts to remove problematic stuck rotors that cause misfires....
5. the rollover switch under the passenger seat needs to be checked and cleaned / lubed and reset - this can cause intermittent cutouts similar to a failing dizzy module.
6. relocating the module to the inner guard near the coil / air intake is a very straightforward useful modification. It guarantees you keep the module from thermal cycling overheating issues.
7, you should check the idle air control solenoid valve on the rear of the plenum. disassemble, clean and reinstall with a new copper washer.
8. static timing in the order of approx 12ºBTDC is a good place to start for tuning, depending on the octane rating and your engine's compression.
9. the fuel pump wiring needs to be thoroughly checked, the fuel pump may even require replacement, as should the fuel filter and the fuel pressure regulator needs to be checked for correct operating range.
10. new rotor, cap and leads as well as quality plugs will make a difference.
I chased a similar issue to you when I first obtained my RRC back in 2014.
I went through all manner of 'forum opinion' given I was never a landrover owner prior to this ( and won't be buying another
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I ended up curing nearly all of my issues with a reasonably comprehensive rewiring of the electrics, which included the fundamental areas mentioned above.
I found the sensors were all fine. The issue was the verdigris in many of the connectors and contacts on the wiring harness. much was fixed with a mixture of almost bopiling water and baking soda, zinc chloride flux and resoldering connectors, several cans of CO cleaner and DeoxIT and many connectors removed or replaced, then reassembled and sprayed with lanolin grease.
a new ignition switch, removal of the fusible links in the engine bay short harness, replacing them with proper fusible links (like modern disco) in an IP rated enclosure, new fuel pump, and distributor module, coil, leads, distributor overhaul (including the mods) and new genuine lucas rotor and cap (yes lucas! I know!) all progressively replaced over the first 3 months of ownership in an effort to track down the culprit was an expense I did not forsee upon purchase.
It wasn't until I took a serious look at the RRC's electrics that I ended up finding a number of quite significant voltage drops across several circuits that caused the 'ah-Ha!' moment which forced me to pull the entire lower dash out and check every single circuit. 90% of my problems were related to poor electrical contact and were easily fixed. Some were wear and tear related (indicator stalks, headlamp switch, ignition switch etc. Relays were put on the ignition to protect the switch (a LR wtf moment surely) and the headlamps.
Bear in mind my RRC never saw any offroad use before I purchased it and the P.O. had fastidiously maintained this every 5000km (records) for 11 years prior.
Turns out that the first owner (I am 3rd) was a bit "lax" and cheap on the post-warranty care (and likely the JLA dealerships were worse) and many of the unresolved omnipresent and previously undiagnosed issues which reared their ugly heads in the first 3 months of my ownership were all electrical related - and more ironically never required 'attention' until the vehicle was sold... read into that what you wish...
Start with getting yourself a copy of RAVE, study it, and then go and test everything. remove any suspect wiring, clean every earth, clean every contact.
That and a really thorough mechanical and fluid servicing, including a flush treatment on the oil and a new trans filter service kit, as well as TC, diffs and swivels.
It's amazing what you will find. and fix!
I have to say despite my loathing for LR as a company and the absolute carp build quality control and electrical design, the RRC has endearing qualities. It is one of the reasons I own one. I could have quite easily made the sensible decision and bought a w461 gelandewagen, which would have been logical - but the RRC always ha some kind of mystical luxury cache coupled with LR DNA with me, and while a perentie would have been a more appropriate choice for me from an LR perspective, the RRC is what I wanted.
They are basic, and even though build quality is atrocious, they are dead easy to maintain and repair.
Ultimately this is why they have a bit of a cult following I believe. After all, that is Land Rover's unofficial byline...... "Turning owners into Mechanics since 1959"
back on topic though... you need rave ETM and you need to start checking the wiring as well as the mechanical stuff. follow logic and process. don't get sidetracked by other contributing factors until you have verified the DUT and made a determination as to whether it is working as designed or not.
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On 5/25/2019 at 7:44 AM, Shackleton said:
Hi Jordan,
That's my video above, chuffed to see it thanks lads.
</snip>
Ahh, so it's you!
Have to say the missus was watching this with me a little while back and we both had a chuckle.
Possibly one of the best no-BS deliveries I've ever seen and both of us just kept nodding and laughing in agreement.
Love the vids!
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On 5/22/2019 at 4:58 AM, Laptom said:
Does somebody perhaps has a wiring diagram of a 90-94 model on pdf or digital?
ThanksIt's called RAVE. the ETM is freely available if you search.
Size prevents it from being uploaded and shared.
Also, there is a ballast resistor 'upgrade' available which uses more modern alloy-heatsink versions of the resistor. I think it was a BA part, a couple of guys down here have them in their RRC's. You could easily make one using parts from mouser/farnell/digikey etc a soldering iron and a spare piece of alloy you have laying around.
the blowers aren't great, but if serviced they are 'quiet'. and in mine, they are quite powerful (MY92 / oct 1992 built).
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On 11/30/2018 at 2:19 AM, JohnnoK said:
Any more info on the OM606 conversion, please?
Despite the 606's known and widely accepted 'bulletproof' status, there are things on any 'junkyard' OM606 that require attention.
A standard engine has an IP which is EDC. You need to find a mech ip from an OM603 and at least swap the elements from the 606 over (6mm)
Better still, Goran Lindgren (superturbodiesel) and IP guru, will do an IP conversion / rebuild (better than anyone else on the planet) and you can bolt it on. elements / bhp is your choice. an 8mm super pump is overkill for everything other than full-on tractor pull / race. 6.5mm is more than enough, by which time you will want something bigger than the standard turbo.
Glowplugs are a neglected item on 606's, and can cause big frustration when trying to remove / replace. an engine with regular servicing will not have this issue. rule#1 is do the glow plugs before you put the engine in the vehicle, and do it properly, you won't have an issue.
big bhp applications need the rear water jacket mod, and valve springs at minimum. Mild boost and fuel needs nothing except EGR blanking plate.
There are some manifold shortcuts you can take which make it quick and easy to remove, it involves removal of some of the inlet manifold webbing between the runners, and it will allow you to access all the bolts with a rattle gun. Makes IP access / adjustment super easy.
EGR blanking plate. Any turbo swap will involve a custom manifold, to replace the OEM flange. F-tune Freddie is the 606 manifold guru.
Alternator relocation bracket (will need exhaust manifold mod) raises the alternator higher to almost level with valve cover.
Dominic @ k2designandfabrication.co.uk makes the brackets.
SMT / GazFab do bolt-in conversion kits to the ZF auto or LT.
12-13L/100km is easily achievable with a laden vehicle.. If you spend time (and some money) tuning and sizing your turbo correctly, don't drive like an idiot and learn the engine power curve, the economy can be far better.
But beware. You need to learn some Mercedes-language and stick to the Mercedes servicing schedules. If you do, the reward is absolutely flawless longevity. Any neglect or abuse without comparable servicing will net you a boat anchor, just like the bmw, Volvo, ford, duramax transplants.
It's all relative, either be prepared to learn and enjoy the fruits of your effort, or stick with what you know and understand. Nothing wrong with a sorted 300tdi, I'd argue better than a td5 and less hassle, but they do have some obvious known issues which need attention.
So do the 4bd1t's, but you have to ask yourself, are we agricultural or are we accepting of modern technologies. Ultimately that's what will dictate your swap.
It's all entirely dependent on you getting a good motor first, and that applies to any swap, regardless. If you get a dud, then you're always going to be complaining.
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On 1/24/2018 at 8:57 PM, retropower said:
...the coating sequence is blast to SA2.5, zinc flame spray, zinc phosphate etch prime, raptor coat (2k urethane truck bed liner thinned and sprayed with primer gun)
Just curious about the application of the raptor coat - is it absolutely necessary to strip back to primer, or can the existing surface be sanded back? Obviously with you restoring this shell the process is going to be blast/etch/prime/coat but for those of us who don't have access to a metalized zinc application unit, the next best thing is to sand coats back sufficiently - but whether or not that has an effect on the adhesion or longevity of the applied coat is the burning question.
Progress is looking great. How's it all coming along now?
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I'll second the Honda GX series - 15hp is perfect.
You can also look for yanmar diesel vtwin option if you prefer. Both are mega-reliable and long-proven.
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You need to look at the other thread:
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Excuse the ignorance, but I'm no 8274 expert -
Is the drum extension simply to fit more line? or does it serve another purpose?
I like the idea of a freespool, but would worry about it engaging when under load. I'm sure that whoever makes them has already thought of this though.
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I have to envy your perseverence.
I just found rust along the sealer seam at the top of the bulkhead, where the firewall meets the cowl/bonnet bracket panel sheetmetal. Seriously Mildly miffed.
I wonder if there are any stainless steel panel pressings available. Doubt it.
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That adaptor is very nice. I just sent rakeway an email.
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Exactly. Thing is it's not my vehicle or box. but it seems the box might be mine now, if you know what I mean (scrapyard)
I didn't want to hijack the thread, so will just leave it here for informational purposes.
It seems that R380's have this same trouble behind a standard rover v8 as well as the TD5, so there is an obvious metallurgy /build quality issue going on.
I'll be rebuilding this one for myself since the autobox is replacing this unit. As for the LT - well I've discovered that the intermediate shaft has the usual wear in the casing, so it's going to be sleeved and rebuilt with all new internal gears (maxidrive) and an ashcroft ATB centre diff.
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This is the pinion shaft - notice no shaft wear, but the inside of the throwout bearing sleeve / pivot fork arm is completely rooted.
I have a feeling this box has been rebuilt more than once, and this wear may be from a previously failed pinion shaft bearing or a failed spigot bush in another flywheel.
Dodgy as all buggery this is, so I can tell you the R380's getting a teardown as well as the LT230.
btw CW, this R380 came form a '92 2 door rossignol disco1 v8. perhaps this is why the output shaft differs to your TD5??
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Apparently I'm only allowed to upload 1.95mb, so I cannot upload any more pics. Sorry.
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Just so you know, this R380 / LT230 sat behind an OM605 for 12 months. The output shaft (mainshaft) was replaced at time fo rebuild.
Light duty offroad, and on a trip up a shaly hillside the LT input gear gave out spectacularly, sending driver on an interesting and rapid reverse trajectory before the handbrake was effective enough to stop the vehicle.. trailered home, stripped down etc... and the below pic shows wear on spline from R380. Can't show you the LT, because it's input gear and bearings are now grey paste internally. Yes, lubed correctly etc. perfectly serviceable blah blah blah... I know the owners driving habits and his maintenance schedules pretty rigorous. I can't upload the input shaft pic, because it's too large, but the shaft itself is fine, the clutch pivot sleeve however, shows a ridiculously abnormal wear pattern on the inside, which doesn't match any wear marks on the input shaft itself. This is somewhat puzzling, as it can only mean deflection on the pivot fork and throwout bearing - possibly the diaphragm is too heavy, but it's a standard sachs pressure plate... I have it sitting on my workshop floor attached to the flywheel.
All I can put this down to, is a weakness in the design - the R380 / LT230 mating splines are less than satisfactory, from a materials perspective (genuine LR) so perhaps Dave Ashcroft has something up his sleeve for you, god knows how long it would have been before the R380's shaft stripped splines and in a way this is a blessing in disguise. Autobox is now going in.... NB there is oil (and fretting corrosion which I removed partially to illustrate the chewed out spline) getting to the shaft, and it was a crossdrilled gear.
I'll try to show the pinion shaft image. it's truly odd.
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Bump. Update? Summer's over here
How's that spud shaft holding up? I'm concerned about the weld on the yoke. (been there, done that). had 1040 yokes & 4140 60mm thickwall machined tube replaced my propshaft on the 124 coupe. No breakies now. centre uni uprated to spicer 1350. (can't fit anything bigger in the transmission tunnel).
I'm sure you have it sorted, just keep an eye out for fatigue on the root of the weld on the 3 fingers. The 722.6 clutches should take most of the shock out anyway.
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I would go for the remote setup.
One of the annoying things about m104/OM606 is the element type filter housing and the cap. Late ones have GR-ABS plastic ****house cap, the early ones have alloy, but they are different sizes! something worth noting when you have to buy a special hazet oil filter socket for each type to remove the caps. PITA. Not MB's finest hour I must say.
Hopefully you also have a housing with the remote cooler. Be aware of the oil filter housings that use the coolant heat-exchanger. These are notorious for failing in poorly maintained engines, the exchanger core rots out internally and you end up with grey soup for oil and coolant, and big problems. It's common on m104's and OM605/6's.
603's had an alloy cap with 2 different size nuts/bolt, similar to old om617's 2-bolt cap.
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Looks quite close to the firewall...
Can you take a pic from the side so I can see how far back it's mounted? maybe a pic of the engine mount as well?
quite interested in the progress, It's looking good - keep us posted!!!
cheers!
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At this stage it's all conjecture anyway.
My own experiences have led me to believe that it's more a case of how a vehicle is treated (driven), than how much power you're funneling through the transmission.
I've seen the 5 speed 717.404 take a massive pounding of supercharged m117 5.6L v8 and not even whince, and in the same sentence, seen an identical box totally minced internally from a 2.3 litre 16v N/A engine.
I've seen 722.6's reworked and taking brutal shock loads from Hemi Chrysler SRT's and twin turbo OM606's with 8mm pumps. I've seen the same transmission fail behind a standard m113 5.5L kompressor v8 in an E55 AMG.
Whether the r380 handles the torque is probably not the entire question. The boxes can be made to be 'reliable'. Problem is, 380Nm is not a lot when we're talking about an OM606. The saving grace however, is that the torque peak moves up the rpm band thanks to the OM606's turbo.
However, I feel that removing the dual-mass flywheel will do more harm than good.
Despite all the conjecture and bull**** that people carry on with, the Dual-Mass flywheel has many advantages over a single mass unit. Reduced intertia at the bite-point of the clutch (on take up and on shift point disengagement) and an incredible reduction in drivetrain shock loading. This is why nearly every manual vehicle on the planet now uses them.
I'm not saying they are 'better' but they certainly do have a lot of advantages in this application. One of the other advantages is the increased mass. Sure, 17.5Kg is a fair amount of mass, and coupled with the centrifugal force of the crank, it does have a tendency to slow the rpm increase a little. But, again, this is an advantage offroad, where low-rpm stability is required for difficult low-speed low-traction low-gear scenarios.
A dual-mass flywheel vehicle is a much smoother and more tractable vehicle to drive. I have a dual-mass 6 speed manual behind my m104 (which is exactly the same block as the OM606) and can state for the record that it is far superior to the single mass flywheel in smoothness. But it does hamper the engines ability to spin up rapidly. I also have a brutally lightened single mass flywheel and will also state for the record, that it transmits every single power pulse through the input shaft gear and has killed input shaft bearings, reverse idler gears and other nonsense in my supposedly 'unbreakable' dogleg 5 speed getrag. So believe who you will - I choose to bank on experience. It;s like these people who say " you need a racing clutch" when the standard 240mm sachs clutch and pressure plate lasts over 100,000km with constant abuse - on a 200kW engine.
So time will tell how long it will be before that sprinter dual-mass-delete flywheel helps to destroy your input shaft gear and bearing.
It's exactly these scenarios where an automatic has a distinct advantage, not only from a torque multiplication factor, but also from a tractive stability and smoothness.
There have been quite a few 'manual versus automatic' debates/arguments recently. The sad reality is that in modern scenarios, a transmission like the 722.6 which has a controllable shift program, the ability to lock into a single gear and the distinct advantage of being a fluid-coupled drivetrain, gives it a significant advantage.
The only downside is the difficulty of bump-strating it. Something a manual box can easily do. It's also something that in a vast desolate environment (like most of Australia) there is a singular purpose and necessity to have a manual transmission in preference to an automatic. Or a good mate who can tow you when the **** hits the fan.
I hope for your sake, the r380 can handle the increased harshness at idle rpm's from the single mass flywheel conversion, but in the same sentence I also suspect it will not long be for this earth purely because of this engine characteristic - and not because of the claims of 'massive torque' others have stated. The damage is not done when in constant mesh. the damage is done when the mesh is NOT constant.
Please keep us informed of your progress. I hope it works out for you.
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My own feeling on the OM606 conversions is that the best transmission is the 722.6 auto. The problem is, they need a standalone controller and you need a VSS to drive a speedo.
However, the ML's 716.6 is a good candidate, as the transfer case can be removed, and just like the LT230/BW transfer cases, a spud shaft (and adaptor plate to the ML flange) can be used to mate the two.
This leaves you with a couple of things to attend to. 1. shifter (sprinter/ML - cable operated) possible propshaft length changes (good time to upgrade to a pair of tom woods shafts) , the linkages for the CDL and handbrake, and transfer case mounts. Any / all of these would be required anyway, unless of course, the OM606 is located exactly correctly with regards to the existing mounts for the trans / transfer case.
If the mating face of the bellhousing has to move fore or aft from the existing position, then all of the above will need doing anyway - so food for thought before you take the plunge.
the 716.6 is a very strong manual box in the diesels. As much as I love my manual boxes though, I would choose the 722.6 auto every single day of the week for a 'driver'. if it was simply a special occasion bashmobile, then it wouldn't worry me.
Keep us updated with your progress, it's always an interesting read. Pics too please!
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The W211 E320 does, because my donor engine came with one! Its on the intake manifold side, towards the rear of the engine.
Nick, The OM648 sump will need modification around the bell housing. My plan is to fill in the webs of the pan with weld where the holes need to be and drill/tap/helicoil them. (Or just drill depending on the access for bolts when it goes together).
mm ok, when i tried to buy one as a backup, the MB stealer told me it didnt.
I will need to do the bell housing mod, will be interested in pics if others have done it. Does it overlap? I thought there were places where i was going to have to weld extensions on...(not in front of it right now)
Not sure I'll get chance to get up there this week... but I can get some pictures for you HoSS. From memory it does overlap.... its just some of them fall in the places where its only a thin web between the original holes.
Feasibly, if the area can be thoroughly cleaned and roughed a little with a burr then devcon Aluminium (F) putty should be strong enough for the application. May even be preferable to welding. (use the genuine stuff) Good enough for use in aluminium heads, so I can't see it as being much of a problem in a small casting void in a bellhousing flange.
Especially as the bolt is required to go all the way through it anyway...
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722.3 is approx 45mm shorter. To me, it would be a complete waste. most 722.3's have a direct 1:1 4th gear (they are only a 4 speed) and only some of the pissweak 722.4's as fitted to baby 4 cyl m102's and the 2.6L m103 had an overdrive ratio available on certain models (so it would depend on the vehicle it was fitted to, which is why you need the second triplet to decipher the gearbox).
Shorter still are 717.4xx manual 5 speeds. Even shorter than that are 716.6xx manual 6 speeds. Some of these have 'sequentronic' which is basically a solenoid controlled adapt-shift 'paddle' manual gearbox. It can operate in an automatic mode with the car's ECU controlling it, but it is a waste of f-ing time and money and hydraulics and electrics. Underneath it all, is the same manual 716.6xx gearbox that you can fit a manual shifter to - be it a BMW e36 dog-bone style or the c-class / e-class reverse lockout style, where reverse is pull up to prevent accidental engagement (it runs on a cable pivot linkage and is OK)
Sprinter have cable operated gearboxes as well. But since you want the auto - You're possibly going to have to make some tough decisions I guess....
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722.397 4 speed, and the 5 speed Gelandewagen box 722.611 which has some internal differences specifically aimed for offroad use. also has deeper pan etc.
Clearance issues can be resolved in a number of ways.
There are a couple of other OM606 sumps also, which are not 'fully' forward - but also remember, the oil pump is located there so any real clearance issues are going to present a problem for you regardless.
What is the installed height of the engine? Do you have a body lift? (which would allow for more clearance, by relocating mounts etc)
You could also consider doing a cut n shut on the sump, relocating the pan aft, etc. Because you can pretty much use any 6cyl pan, you could feasibly grab 3 or 4 of them and fabricate your own version.
Jeep Wrangler also used OM613 / 648 I believe, so possibly other sources for your parts abound....
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I had the sump modified for my W460 G-wagen since the motor came from a 300E W210 sedan.
The OM606A was a factory engine in the later G300 G-wagen with a different sump to the E300.
However the G300 sump is very rare and expensive.
Just wanted to resurrect this and post an FYI:
Below screenshots are for future reference for others planning on swaps - they come from EPC for OM606A and OM648LA
There are 3 sump variants on the 4 OM606 engines ( OM606.910/912, OM606.961/962/964 D30 LA) for OM648LA there are 2 variations, I have only included the rear sump version
Be aware that there are also sumps from OM603, M103 & M104 that can be adapted to fit as well, with some modification.
This provides for an even wider variation of available sumps - including low mount and side pan variations.
The important thing to note for OM648, is that only the engine as fitted to w211 (e class) e320cdi is the rear sump version. If you obtained one from a W220 (S class) then it will be front mount just like the rest of them.
For a Land Rover project, The best candidate is likely to be the OM648 sump and oil pump, along with the modification of the rear bellhousing flange to accept the OM603/606 transmission bolt pattern (which incidentally is the same as M102/3/4/111 and OM602/3/5/6)
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RRC Heater upgrade
in Range Rover Forum
Posted
https://www.roverparts.com/Parts/PRC8010