Peaklander

Pressing the bearings onto the carrier didn't go well. I could not get my press to push vertically and twice got the first bearing on cock-eyed. Nothing I can do will get it to start straight and I used the clamshell puller to get it off (very easily). I dislike this press enormously and if I continue with this kind of hobby I will need to either throw it or severely modify it so that it does what it's supposed to do. The ATB is back in the house and I hope that the frost on it will evaporate quickly. Maybe the freezer isn't such a good idea and I would be better properly heating the bearing. I think I'll move to Plan B and jump in the car on Monday to Mister Gearbox. I can concentrate on the pinion instead. The outer race was also in the freezer and now that is in the case in front of the shim (yes I did remember to put it back). So I can add the crush washer and set the preload, which needs to result in a torque of 34.5 - 46 Kgfcm which has to be the weirdest non-SI measurement. I will check it with a spring balance and a short bar and I will show my workings here. 😜 The old and new crush washer are only 1mm different in length (27.9mm v 28.8mm) although the new one varies a little on that length (about 0.4mm) measured to different points around the circumference. It's obviously not a precision piece. I have a new seal ready to go in. It's the leather type, which must have been appropriate for the mid 1990s builds. I went to the local garage and I borrowed one of their brake pipe flare kits. The guy there (long time, experienced mechanic and sole trader alongside his better half), was having a bad day. I caught him cursing a front hub that was in the process of being demolished dismantled with such anger, that he was wearing ear defenders. Anyway I was clearly so happy myself that it rubbed off and he told me to go and get the box and I was off. I need to replace the brake pipe across the axle, as stupidly I managed to snag a union and in the semi-darkness I had twisted the pipe instead of turning the union around the pipe. I also need to service my Eberspacher D2 heater. So there's plenty to do in advance of Monday morning. I can even lift the axle back into place and fit the new brake pads and be ready to do that final install of the ATB from underneath.

Ahem, it's like a lot of things, you need to get your timing right.

OK well on the strength of the positive feedback I have decided to continue! Into the cooler 🥶

😀 it isn’t quite done yet. I think when it is, I’ll want to close the case before lifting down from the workbench and back to the vehicle. I will need to get some additional muscle from somewhere. There’s no room to use the crane.

I'm having a good afternoon then. Thanks. Now I'm 'off it" for 24 hours as got other more pressing things this afternoon and the morning, so there's plenty of time for more advice! In the morning I have to go to Buxton - just when some snow is forecast, so that could be fun. #wintertyres Unless anyone has a contrary opinion I think that I should leave it. There's the chance that fitting the bearings to the ATB and the crush washer to the pinion will alter things. I know that's not supposed to happen but... If I remember in the morning I'll put the ATB in the freezer. It will need some sort of weight spreader otherwise I'll squash something. Bearings on the Aga too. Even so, they are a tight fit. Oh yes, @ashtrans confirmed this morning that their ATB shaft spec. is 57.2mm +0.02 +0.03 (thanks Dave), so that is the same as the carrier that has come out and my machinist was being unduly cautious.

Yes. I think increasing the pinion height (more mesh) should do that but where they then sit (together) I don't know. As it will reduce backlash anyway (and that is at the top of the range now), moving things towards the toe, I might be lucky.

So, I have looked at the contact pattern and will post some photos. The situation is that the pinion is in, now with a Timken bearing and the shim that was there is now under a Timken cup, ground undersize so that I can remove it if needed. That will be changed to a pressed cup at the end. The book suggests the pinion should be over 10 thou lower than it is, due to the +9 marking, so that is more out of mesh. However, give or take the Koyo - Timken change, it is in the same position as before. The ATB is in with dummy bearings and shims as detailed above. There's now a total of 0.103" and there was 0.105" with the old final drive fitted. The bearing caps are fitted but not torqued. Backlash is under 0.011"; it varies a little on the rotation. There's no measurable run-out. Here are the photos. I have posted several as the shadows and angles really affect what you can see: Drive side (convex) To my novice eye, that looks good. Central up and down and not on the edge or down in the root. Coast (concave) I'm not so sure about these coast markings, they might be too far to the toe (inside). I believe that pinion depth moves the pattern between root (deeper) and tooth (shallower) but it also moves the drive and coast between toe to heel (inside outside) in opposite directions. So moving the pinion to get the coast mark towards the heel, would bring the drive mark towards the toe. Backlash moves the marks in the same direction. Tighter mesh (higher pinion) moves to the toe and looser (lower pinion height) moves to the heel. Trouble is I think my drive pattern is good as it is! I need grown-ups. So I won't touch anything and wait and see what you all suggest... Edit: I think if I do anything, that the drive is towards the Heel and the coast is towards the toe. Therefore I believe the pinion could come up a touch, more into mesh.

I lent my original ramps to someone in 1978 and never saw them again. Finally bought a pair for nothing a few years ago but the front apron is too low on our Golf and so I gave them away.

It's gone in finally, with a struggle. I wound-up the spreader and took it to 6.5 thou. When it didn't drop in I did it some more. It would easily just drop most of the way but I finally resorted to a few copper hammer blows and it was in. That was much harder than I expected. This is still with the dummy bearings on of course. I know they are 'right' so it can't be that. Some EP80 on the sides definitely helped. The backlash was over spec at 0.40mm / 16 thou. (spec. 6-11) so out it came, with a bar and spreader. I moved the 4 thou shim (which seems to measure 5 today) across to the CW side and in it went, same method but at least it was quicker. The ATB by the way, with CW fitted, weighs 22Kg. It's quite a workout as my workbench is high and I need to stand on a step to be sure I'm at the correct angle. If you have ever 'tweaked' something that then takes six weeks or more to calm down, then you'll know why. So now the backlash is between 11 and 5 as I measure in four quadrants. The runout is negligible. I will go and fasten the bearing caps on just to be sure nothing changes but it looks as though I need to move a little more shim to the CW. Now I have 30+30+4 on the CW and 30+9 opposite, still maintaining 103 total. There's a selection of 3 / 5 / 10 new shims available to use and an original 2 which is slightly damaged but maybe would be ok. I could go to 30+30+5+2 and 30+3+3 to keep 103 total. Perhaps before I do, I could check the contact pattern. If it looks horrible then I will probably make a pinion height change and that would change the backlash anyway.

That’s useful detail. I’d remembered the three flats and thought it would be spreader specific but I didn’t remember that it says 0.012”. If I can spread just a little more it will be ok, I’m sure and now I have that leeway. Thanks both. Onwards…

Right well I am very confused and need a break. If I spread it by 0.005" using the dti across to one side, it feels very hard work on the spreader I have to reach that. I read on the interweb that a Dana 60 case can be spread up to 0.015" which would be way more than needed and a tough ask on my spreader - which I thought I'd managed to create as heavy duty! Can a Salisbury really be spread that much? So much stuff says just knock it back in with a hammer. There's no way mine will go that way, it doesn't sound as though it is moving once it is in about half-way. I was very careful with the CW mounting, oilstone, break cleaner etc. Surely I don't need to re-visit that. It must be the lack of spread.

Does anyone know how much the case should spread? I assume it has to at least move by the pre-load amount of 5 thou. I don't know how much grunt to put on my spreader. Maybe I should measure the opening as I do it and find out. Edit: yes Nige, I have done exactly that on the crown wheel assembly to the ATB.

I have got stuck. Not literally but stuck at the point where I am trying to locate the ATB with the shims and dummy bearings. Hopefully I'm not repeating words I've written earlier - just to say that I removed shims on CW side 30+30 and opposite 30+9+4+2. (I had thought those last ones were both 3 but they are definitely not the same. So that was 105. Before the pinion went in this morning I measured the end-float again at 98 and so aimed for 98 + 5 = 103. I know the 'reset' instructions are to put it all at the CW but I couldn't see the point in that as I have a reasonable idea of the split. So 30+30 went in at the CW as it was before and 30+9+4 on the other side. It won't go in at that. Now I am using the spreader but I am being 'super' careful. I marked the flats so I can count. The Book says a max of three flats after the nuts are finger tight but it won't go. It gets a long way across the axle tube, isn't getting stuck on the angle (I can pull it back out) but it reaches a stop and it isn't the pinion. It will go in if I remove 30 but then of course it's loose! I am doing what I need to do and calming down in the house. Perhaps I should stretch a bit more... Any ideas???

I inserted the ATB again using the dummy bearings, with the crown wheel fitted, following some work with the oil stone and brake cleaner, having torqued the bolts to spec., a mere 58Nm. Then I measured the run-out. It is variable, as much as 0.11mm over one revolution in one direction yet only 0.05mm in the other and the spec. max is 0.05mm. I can only assume that the dummy bearings are interfering with this. Although it does feel a bit strange to do this by the book method, where it says measure without the bearing caps fitted. So I'm not sure about that. The new Timken pinion inner bearing is on the shaft. Freezer / warm stove-top and a press that is not so good but it went on OK. I needed a bit of pipe but the steel I have has a seam on the inside (scaffold pole) and it was that much undersize. With no way of grinding it away on that length I resorted to aluminium. It worked. Yes my press is rubbish, the jack leaks in spite of my efforts to reseal it and that downward pressing bit onto the workpiece is cock-eyed. I need to improve it The undersize pinion inner cup used for set-up is still in the case with the previously installed shim and the pinion now in again for another test fit, with some pre-load, just enough to make the flange slightly stiff to move by hand. I'm now at the point where I will fit the shims to the ATB. The endfloat this morning measured 98 thou and with 5 pre-load to add, that gives me 103. I now need to use the spreader, hopefully it will help although I know I need to be extra cautious. The axle is on stands on the bench and pulling and prying isn't that easy with many Kgs trying to fall over. It is extremely heavy. Just the ATB alone seems heavier than the Salisbury it is replacing. Edit it is 22Kg without the bearings. There is some concern about the relative size of the ATB 'stubs' and the Timken bearing IDs. The bearing ID is 2-1/4" or 57.15mm.The difference is 0.8mm / 3thou." I feel a bit better as I have compared the ATB OD with the Salisbury, now that the bearings are off and the ATB is about 57.22mm and the old one 57.25mm. That's with a vernier that just fits across. So I think I will be ok. Maybe the ATB will need to spend some hours in the freezer, just to make things a bit easier.

@nickwilliams produced this and it should complement what @Maverik just posted. Intermittent front wiper.pdf

That was the question; I'm not intending to miss-out the torque, just wondering whether it would be OK to release one at a time to apply thread-lock. Maybe the best would be to assume the run-out will be ok, apply it and if they need undoing, the thread-lock won't have set. It seems to have been very kind to the bearings; there is no obvious strain. I will post some pics when I get outside in a bit.

I haven’t measured it yet. I just put it in. That will be in the morning after I fit the pinion. First I have maybe to use threadlock and torque the CW bolts. Please see my question about that above. @hurbie yes I understand that. I’m not reusing the bearings but what you say makes sense.

Thanks @Snagger - I will be spending lots of time very soon looking at more blue marks. I will apply it more carefully too. This afternoon I had a great time with the Vevor puller and thanks to @hurbie who mentioned it in my vehicle thread and to Mick at Britannica Restorations who produced a short 'first use' video here. I started on the pinion bearing. You need to use the appropriate size clams, there are three to choose from. It's interesting how it works, not able to get under the inner race, it lifts the cage but the bearing is clamped together with the two knurled discs that are wound down the main shaft. Then a retaining sleeve slides over and is secured with a large screw against the clam. Then all that's needed is for the centre 'pin' to be wound down to push against the top of the pinion. It was time for my China impact through a 19mm socket and.... nothing happened. So then as my only and last resort, I dusted-down my Aldi middle aisle Workzone air impact gun and cranked the air pressure up to 9Bar and to my slight surprise and relief, the shaft started to turn and the assembly moved up! Bingo! One Koyo pinion bearing is now free. I was so confident and now it was clear that the bearings will move with this method, I moved to the diff carrier after all. This has shims that I wanted to save. I decided to use the black clamshell pair as that seemed to be a little larger and kept away from the shims underneath the race. These two bearings were not quite as tight as that on the pinion and they were soon off and the shims recovered. That is 105 thou (0.105") available which happens to be the ATB (end-float + preload) that I measured the other day, or not far off. So with the 3 / 5 / 10 / 30 pairs that I bought sale or return from Paddocks, I am going to be OK. Then I released the crown wheel. These bolts were tight and needed a breaker bar, sequentially released just a little at a time. For a bit of light therapy I then cleaned off the red Loctite, which needs plenty of heat to soften it and then a stiff wire brush. Then it was onto the ATB, just for a quick look but I need to check how to fasten them in, when I might need to remove them again in order to rotate the ring. Do I torque-up fully without thread lock, check run-out and if OK then remove one bolt in turn, apply the red stuff and re-torque that? Or do I have to do the full sequence which might affect run-out if it is fully released? That will be the morning's job.

I am trying to remain focussed but having started the engine top-end check and overhaul some weeks ago and forcing myself to get to the bottom of the drivetrain clunk 'once and for all', I seem to be doing little else. Driving it to Ripon on Sunday seems a tall order, as everything I do takes longer than I expect. So this morning I wanted to clear my head and so Mrs P and I went for our weekly swim (normally Friday) and I emptied my head of pinion thoughts and filled it with counting strokes. 2,000m later I am back and want to get this over! Here's a summary of where I am and please excuse the ramblings, it helps to get my thoughts onto 'paper'. So far nothing has changed and those yellow and blue contact patterns are with the original set-up. All I have done is plenty of pinion height measurements, I removed the inner pinion bearing cup, measured the shim in there for interest (30 thou) and replaced the shim together with the ground-down Timken cup so that I can adjust the shim thickness easily. So the blue isn't a new pattern Nick, it is just the most recent. In the post this morning (it never seems to stop), I have red Loctite 263 for the crown-wheel bolts and an inner pinion bearing (Koyo). Both of these were delivered overnight in 1st class post so thanks Royal Mail. I got the Koyo in a rush yesterday when it appeared that I was going to preserve the current setup, either by not changing the pinion bearing or by staying with the existing brand (Koyo). Now I think I am going to change things so much by fitting the crown wheel to the ATB, that I can consider moving back to Timken and relying on wear patterns to get me something like OK. The pinion height is defined by the shim and is way off where I believe it should be, as I am measuring 4-5 thou above nominal and the pinion, marked +9, needs to be at 9 thou below. That's what I understand from the workshop manual. However, as you can see, the existing contact patterns (nothing at all has yet been changed) are OKish. I now need to decide, change the pinion bearing or not. I have a new Timken and now also a Koyo. With this in mind I will pull the Koyo off the pinion using the Vevor clamshell puller and then put the shaft in the freezer. Later I will put the Timken into the Aga (there's a choice of ovens at 100C or 220C) and then I think the new bearing will go on without too much bother. I do have a press but the jack is cr@p and it doesn't always want to exert enough pressure. Then, when it has all got back to ambient temperature, I will mount the pinion and measure the height with the 30 thou shim still in place, just to see what has changed. I only have 90 thou of carrier shims and this won't be enough, so I will cut the existing bearings off the Salisbury and hope I can recover the shims from it. There's no way that the Vevor puller can get under those side bearings - there isn't any space but it might pull the outer race off - a less sparky method maybe. If there are enough shims then I can load-up the ATB on the crownwheel side. The crown-wheel has to be removed, and the mating surfaces of it and the new ATB checked and then I can fit it and check the run-out in various places, as Nige says. I like the method that you suggest Nick of rotating it one segment at a time to try to overcome excessive run-out. Then I will fit the ATB and see where we are, using the dummy bearings on that, again so that I can easily adjust things. Well as easy as it will be with the spreader - I hope that bit works. Then I will check the backlash and move the shims from the Crown wheel side to the other. Finally I will get the blue out and report back.

I did run some 'today' checks this afternoon. Maybe I should have painted it a bit thicker but I have at least got more evidence of where it is with the original diff carrier in there. I am learning all the time about the contact pattern - there's advice all over but thank you Nick for your screenshots. The pinion cup that has been ground down slipped-in nicely so that will help. With everything back, no crush washer but the pinion tight with a little pre-load (I didn't measure it), I have these patterns... Drive side (convex) Coast side (concave) Thanks @Hybrid_From_Hell, my head is a little less scrambled now that I know if the mesh is correct then 'it is all good'. Can you tell me how I change the run-out? I thought that is something that I can't change, save for ensuring that the CW and the mating surface are as flat as can be and the bolts are evenly torqued-down.

I'm not sure to what you are referring. That 9 thou number is the one on the pinion, not a measurement that I have made. Also I haven't seen those specifications for it. Yes, the diff end-float is to be found without the pinion (or crown wheel as I haven't moved it over yet) so there's no clash. I have just done that, using my dummy carrier bearings and measured 0.100". I doubt that I can get the existing diff carrier bearings off without a fight but then I would recover those shims, or I can get more from Paddock's (£1.32 each) with a bit of a drive. I have 2 off each of 3 / 5 / 10 / 30 thou., so 0.096" in total - not quite enough. I haven't started to split them across the sides yet which might make it more fiddly without a big choice of thicknesses and will do that once I'm ready to measure the backlash. I didn't run a contact pattern when you mentioned it as by then the diff centre was already out and I was looking into the cross-pin wear. I did have a go doing it four years ago with these two pics as evidence. I don't think that I took any advice about the results, as it was on 11 March 2020 and we were about to go into Covid lockdown. I have a pinion inner bearing cup that has been ground on the OD to allow it to be used during set-up, so experimenting with pinion shims is straightforward. There was only one pinion shim in there, 0.030". First thing today I again measured the pinion height and this time got around 4 - 5 thou on both sides. I still find this strange as the pinion is marked 9 thou and so I should measure -0.009" from the height block nominal. If I am correct then my pinion was about 0.013" too high. I am definitely a little bamboozled by the approach needed on the pinion because surely it all comes down to mesh. Maybe the factory set-up did not include a mesh check and they used a known process of measurement and set-up the shims as a result of that, with no check of 'actual'. That measurement approach to pinion height setting appears to get things into the right ball park but it is really the contact pattern that is to be used as the final judgement, plus the necessary backlash. If that is correct then I can do as you say @Snagger - but why would I do it with the existing diff, as the ATB is going surely going to affect it? Can't I just go direct to the ATB? Edit: putting it back and checking the original mesh with blue.

I knocked out the race and recovered the single 0.030 shim in there. It is a Koyo bearing, now made under the Jtekt banner. They are not available on the shelf locally and I half wanted to admit defeat and put it back. The bearing suppliers I rang have each told me that there's no need to match the brand. I have found one on-line that will be sent today, Royal Mail 1st class - so I am committed now. I also took delivery of the Vevor bearing puller that will be used. It's an expensive way to pull a bearing but I will give someone else the chance to use it once I have finished! I'll practice on the diff carrier first, just to see how it behaves.

OK @Hybrid_From_Hell I follow that advice. Thanks Just one more question then. I use the same brand bearing and shims as found and the pinion sits in there as before. The crown wheel is being moved across to the ATB but with new, same brand carrier bearings. Won’t I need to look at the new mesh pattern and maybe need to adjust pinion height anyway or is that all going to be tuned at the carrier shims?

Yes that makes sense. A relative position adjustment rather than something about its absolute size. I will measure the existing once more to check that my 4 thou and 8 thou are correct and then punch out the old race and see what it is. I do have the undersize Timken outer race ready to use, so that I can fit and fiddle with the pinion shims and I already bought a new Timken bearing to use, so I could go further if I have doubts about the existing set-up.

This pinion end-marking that denotes a 'variation from nominal' is a bit strange. If there is no variation, so no marking, then the pinion is shimmed to the value closest to that obtained when comparing the height block of 30.93mm with the height between pinion top and the curve in the carrier bearing surface. As it says in the good book: "The figure marked on the end face opposite to the serial number indicates, in thousandths of an inch, the deviation from nominal required to correctly set the pinion. A pinion marked plus (+) must be set below nominal, a minus (- ) pinion must be set above nominal. An unmarked pinion must be set at nominal". If there is a 'variation from nominal' marked, as there is on mine of (plus) 9, the pinion is set 0.009" lower. When the shims are placed correctly, this 9 thou is what is seen on the dial gauge indicator - a deliberate deviation from 'nominal'. What I don't understand is what this difference is, between different pinions, that requires the top of the pinion to be set higher or lower than the desired point. It can't just be a measurement because that is captured anyway. Is it for differing expansion coefficients? What is going on? I don't know that it actually makes a lot of difference because of what comes later in the adjustments: 1) The end-float of the diff carrier is found, the necessary pre-load added and then the carrier has that total amount shimmed to the side that pushes the crown wheel away from the pinion. 2) The backlash between CW and pinion is found. If it outside the allowance (0.006 - 0.011") then the shims are moved little by little across to the other side of the carrier. 3) Then using 'blue' the mesh pattern is obtained and if it isn't correct then the pinion height is possibly going to be adjusted anyway. The nominal height plus/minus the marked number on the pinion, is only a start! I hope I have got this right.