Peaklander

Understand now, thanks both. My engine is ex Discovery (21L) but it would have been a straight swap (by a po in 2003) as it was always a 300TDi / R380 combo.

Ok. What is it that causes this difference requiring the engine to be further back? I’ve heard about it before but don’t know why.

My PAS reservoir, viewed from front, is high up at front right hand side in the corner formed by intercooler and front wing. That's a 300 TDi 110.

I'm moving back to my vehicle thread now as I know where I am and what I'm doing with the engine re-build. The position is, that the white smoke (original reason for this thread) I hope has been cured with a couple of new nozzles and a full clean and check of the injectors. I checked the FIP timing with a dti and it is good. The excessive oil in the intake system that caused me to pull the head has, I hope been caused by excessive blow-by on #2 cylinder. There I have lost the honing at the back of the bore and the rings were very sticky. On cleaning-up, the ring to piston gaps are over spec on top and middle. So I will replace that piston. Speaking with Frieda at Turners, she pointed out that #2 is right next to the turbo. I hadn't thought of that but she seems to think that is why. I am getting the cylinders honed in a couple of days by a mobile company. I know, I know - I could do it myself but factoring in the cost of a tool, I'm not really paying too much and the job will be done by the weekend. I have told the guy that the turbo and manifold is off and I have already removed the oil jets which would get in the way. I checked these oil jets and they are OK. the pipes blew through, although the oil was a bit thick but it was only 5C. The banjo bolt non-return valves seem ok with a little push of welding wire. Interestingly Frieda said that they don't refit these with the copper washers anymore. I queried this and she checked with their engine builder and it was confirmed. Strange but true. So I could buy some more (8 and 10mm I think) or not bother. The existing ones are a bit deformed and not worth annealing otherwise I'd do that. The conrod bearings shells aren't warn at all and are at standard. Taking @cackshifter's advice, I will change these but can't see any reason to plastigauge for sizes as there is no visible wear. Frieda said the same. So, this morning I have ordered one +20 piston set which has rings, gudgeon pin and circlips, three groups of +20 rings, a set of conrod bearings at standard and an oil filter. There's a couple of other gaskets and stuff from elsewhere but that is the main bill to pay today. The cost mounts up. I'll probably head back over here next.

@mmgemini yes I know the answer to those questions but I don't see how they are relevant. There's a lot more to it than owning the name. You can't just say Indian is "a bad thing". There's plenty of autonomy in the UK bases. Far more than in plenty of other automotive companies here. I find it sad that there is little or no recognition of that within this thread In fact people seem to wish JLR a speedy demise. Why on earth would anyone want that, based on a feeling, however strong, that the newer models are not what "people" want? There's enough challenges in keeping strategic decision making in the UK as it is and it's fair to say that a good bit of JLRs is still here, as well as some manufacturing, plus engineering, design, sales, marketing...

An Indian carmaker, are you kidding? Have you been to Gaydon? Have you been inside? Have you seen how many people from the UK work there? There's more R&D and other stuff going on there under UK leadership than in many other car makers.

I feel sad reading these pages; especially all the handbags. I have a number of previous work colleagues now working at JLR and in some very significant positions. They have brought with them some fantastic automotive manufacturing and quality experience and are working their proverbials off to help get both J and LR into a better position. Ok so they don't design, market or sell, they work in operational roles and they would be sad too if they read this thread.

Yes I have read-up on how to use that. A new set is £23.40 from Turners though, so not expensive. Presumably I could buy a set at std (same as on) and direct fit? Edit: Also I have cleaned-up all the pistons but on number 2 the ring to groove gaps are over spec. Not much but they are over on top and middle rings. I am assuming that the rings are too hard to wear and it must be the piston. It's half expected of course.

I’m not surprised to hear that 😃 Presumably they need properly bedding in with new surface preparation?

Yes hone #2 probably not the others but I will practice first and see. If a little fettle is possible then I might. Certainly I’ll change all the rings. It won’t break the bank. As for the bid end shells, none are showing wear (colour change through to base) so I’m thinking not necessary? Tomorrow I will check the pistons especially #2. Also I will perhaps text the oil jets but I think they need to be removed for that. Should I change the core plugs? There are six but I don’t know if they can be accessed. Do I lever out and then smoothly tap new ones in? New ground. Plenty of questions!!!

Yes the measurements are good. TBH I did redo ones that were clearly outliers. This was mainly down to method. I used the gauge as a snap meaning put it in on an angle, fully open as it is only marginally wider than the bore, with the clamp tight. Then carefully moved it through the perpendicular, to then withdraw on the other angle. Sometimes I didn't tighten the clamp enough and it sprang open but other times it felt too tight. If it looked a but questionable we actually took a lot more of one measurement until I felt that the method was back in repeatable mode. I think that's OK. The kitchen table is right under that window.

Mrs Peaklander and I have had an interesting day measuring our bores. We are using a telescopic (snap) gauge and a vernier both from Mitutoyo. There is definitely a lot of care needed to ensure repeatability in the measurements and I worked hard to try to ensure that every one was made using exactly the same method. Measurements were taken within the swept area just down from the top, the middle and a little up from the bottom and for those, front to back and side to side. There are three data points for each one. The results are good. Then I started to measure the pistons but there was a sound of glass from the other side of the house and we found a Velux window where the unit has exploded. The inner pane was all over the kitchen floor with a still intact outer sheet. We contacted Velux who told us that there was a problem with that age of unit (about 19 years) and even a recall in the press which we didn't see. They are sorting it pronto. Measurement of pistons continues later!

How is the diaphragm checked @smallfry? I ask as white smoke was a problem for me and I could check this as well.

When I was in the engineering place in Sheffield to drop off my head the other day, I saw a block on a stand. I could see three pistons but where the fourth should have been was a pile of pebbles. I had a moment where I honestly thought it was being used as some sort of ashtray or something. Apparently it was a Merc engine and the piston had been subjected to a flamethrower of an injector which they believed was squirting directly down onto the head.

I'm thinking ahead to tomorrow when the measurements are done and there's confirmation that the bores are OK 😉. What are your recommendations regarding DIY honing? I have approached a mobile company, who are fairly local, following the Google suggestion from @western but I think that honing is straightforward and I should consider doing it myself. The engineering shop said a flexi-hone is fine and I should be careful to only do about twenty passes up and down each cylinder. So it doesn't look like a big job. There are plenty of tools around for ~£20. Also they said to keep the cylinders lubricated with paraffin and soak it up at the bottom, above the crank, with plenty of rags. So how to choose a tool and is there any advice on how to do it please? TIA

Absolutely no need to apologise. It’s a good news story that there’s a rebore size available. I hope I don’t need it. Will find out on Monday when I measure.

I’m going to a “launch event” in Sheffield next week. I don’t suppose there will be any sand or mud but I’ve received an invitation and have the time to enjoy the drinks and nibbles that will undoubtedly be provided.

Yes that’s what I’m hoping will happen. New 20 thou rings and a hone then away we go, but I will measure first anyway. Mobile re-honing isn’t something I thought to Google. This is a surprise as I seem to Google everything else. So thank you again @western. Edit: The people at Sheffield Engineering Services said that a hand held honer would be fine to use. They said that it should only need twenty up/downs to sufficiently hone each bore. Any more than that would remove too much metal and create a taper or whatever. By the way I hadn’t realised that the Overhaul manual is different to the Workshop manual. I have a pdf copy of both but have never looked at the Overhaul manual. What a twit.

I have had time to check this. Standard bore diameter is 90.47mm from the above, a piston size of 90.395 gives a clearance of 0.075 or 3 thou of an inch and using that: an oversize piston of 90.649 would give a bore of 90.724 which is +10 thou and oversize piston of 90.903 would give a bore of 90.978 which is +20 thou and +40 thou would mean piston size of 91.411 and a bore of 91.486. Turners show this size on their website as @western showed earlier. In fact they list a +40 and a +40 replacement. These two have different prices so I don't know whats happening there but it does appear that there is are two oversizes at 20 and 40 not the 10 and 20 that the manual shows. My piston does indeed measure at 90.903 so @cackshifter is correct and I am happier as there is another size to go if I need it (cough).

Well it looks plausible! I’m not having a garage day but can’t wait to get back out and check. I spend so much time in there as it is, it’s referred to as Grampy’s house.

Thanks @monkie I will. I have some experience with gauge R & R but not measuring bores. That was weighing of full drinks cartons.

I’m trying to soak up all this advice and determine what the next action should be. The machine shop has been there for years and has a big turnover of work. When they say “measure if you want but the bores won’t be warn” then I have to take that as reliable. I was interested to hear that they rebuild Land Rover engines that the army send from Devon. I said I will measure so I will. I hope I do it accurately enough to make a decision.

Got some (good) family distractions preventing me commenting in detail to all this good advice. I really appreciate it. Just to clear up a comment or two, whatever has happened to this engine like overheating or water, has happened before I bought it. That was five years ago and something like 30-40K miles. I’ve driven it all over Europe, up to 2,400m and some long distances. It has never missed a beat. The first ever problem really has been the white smoke a couple of weeks ago. So I trust it and I now have a fully checked out head as it passed all the tests. The question about block out is really not what I want to do. I replaced the clutch etc last year at chassis swap and did the timing belt not long before that The engineering shop say it’s absolutely not necessary to rebore as it will not need it and that’s after looking at the pistons and my pics and description of the bores. I will measure it though and try to get solid data. For that I’d like to thank @nickwilliams who has lent me the measuring kit to do this. The pistons by the way are +20 and the crank is at original size.

There aren’t any ridges to feel. In fact I can’t feel any imperfections at all. Non of the marks can be felt. It is possible that #4 marks are a smear of oil or something. I’ll check again and look at the pistons more closely. I really didn’t think we would be talking about a new engine 😱

Your post is confusing Red. What are you saying here? Is it because the topic title is white smoke? That was the initial problem. This oil issue is an additional problem that I noticed. I took your advice and that of others and have pulled the pistons for a better look. I am a novice though. An older novice but a novice nonetheless. 😀