disconc

Thanks Bowie. Ok, so, if it's not broken, don"t fix it 😁 ... I will mess with something else Cheers Erik.

Hi Gents, thanks for your congrats and also your valuable help. You are part of the success !!! And yes, I am very happy and quite proud to have come to this point already. Still a few things I would like to get better of course (smoother warm-up / cold AE), but it is already, I must say, more usable than it was on stock tired LUCAS AFM. I will surely post a few more things when I can work on it and update. For example, if you have a look at the logs I have posted above in the thread, I am a bit concerned about the AFR (and I must say the Battery voltage also) looking kind of noisy... even if I have no functioning problem... looks like maybe my main voltage is noisy... and it is the same supply source for AFR and ECU... but why is that, all the more, in the MLV screenshot above, that you can still see the "noise" on these two signals while engine not running !!! Cheers again to you all, big credits to the grown ups, Bowie, Fridge, Quagmire... and all the others Erik.

Hello MS friends, another update, and a pretty good one !!! after various fiddling with the settings, and mainly playing as Bowie suggested on WUE, I can now start my tank like a factory car on just one turn of the key out of the window YEAHH !! Ok, so as before, it was starting on the first crank and stall, starting on the second crank and stall, starting on the third crank and run... then, on this run, I played with the wue, while racing against the increasing temperature to try and make it run smooth. The day after, I was ready to do the same again, and was explaining all the magic & rocket science behind my MS project to my brother in law who was around, telling him I was still playing with the settings to make it start better... cranked from cold... AND YES... IT RAN STRAIGHT AWAY ... YOOOHOOOOO. Then I though, maybe this is just out of luck. So a week after, from cold again... first crank and YYEESSSSSSS it runs 😁 Since then, I am maybe about 10 starts away, whenever cold or hot, and it always starts and run nicely first time. Ok, I reckon, I might still have to play a little around to refine things, as I feel it might be running a bit rich during the warm up... like 12.5/13.0 AFR... is this ok, or should I aim to closer to 13.5/13.7 ??? Here are might latest settings for what it is worth : Req_fuel = 19.6 // Idle cells @ 47 // idle advance at about 11 deg Crank PW in order of Temperature (4/16/27/38/54/71°C) = 8 / 6.5 / 5.5 / 4.5 / 3.8 / 3.1 ASE total 17 sec, fixed then decay, use fixed MAP for 6 sec @ 60 kpa ASE % in order of Temperature (4/16/27/38/54/71°C) = 24 / 22 / 20 / 16 / 10 / 4 WUE % in order of Temperature (4/16/27/38/54/71°C) = 135 / 132 / 128 / 117 / 108 / 100 It is really hard to tune/be sure about the 4/16°C cells in WUE, as weather here makes it difficult to do a cold start with CLT below 20 deg !!! PWM Idle valve set as warm up only, 200 frequency, closed at 70 dc, crank opening at 110, fast idle set at 20°C and 110 opening, slow idle set at 78°C and 70 dc. Seems to work like a charm ! Also, huge vibration on road as told a few posts above has been linked to my 235/85 mud tires... I believe their structure is shot as they are aging and might be way out of balance. I now "wear" a set of stock/small road tires on alloy rims, and it is smooth as silk... also, with my 4.11 R&P, this small tires make the tank behave like a sport car on take off🚀... yet the speedo is completely out 😎 I made a 100 km tuning run on road like this, with autotune cell change on very hard, and cell changes where not very important... and car runs really well, maybe I am biased, but I feel it runs and pulls better than before on LUCAS. I hope that this tuning run on small tires won't be compromised when I will refit new bigger tires (235/85 being "my" tire size for the tank). I have also activated fuel cut off on overrun, so it behaves as stock, when taking foot off throttle on overrun, the AFR goes straight in the 22.4 (no fuel) as it was doing under lucas era. Oh, did I mention it now starts every time on single turn of the key... oh yes I did, but it is so satisfying !!!!!! Thank you all for your support... I will keep on updating the refining of the tune hopefully, but the car is now completely usable as an everyday car, never stall when warm like it did before on the Lucas (and I don't even use PWM idle valve in closed loop ! even with autobox and A/C), behaves way better, start on first crank (oups ! said it again)... I guess, on the to do list is, one thing at a time, and patiently look what it does on several future crank and run : => refining a little the WUE => then try to smooth out a little the warm starting, maybe around ASE fixed map value ?? => refine a little the AE... when driving, no worries. When blipping the throttle at rest, feels like hesitation, mainly when still during warmup... => do a few autotune runs when the new tires will be back to check everything is tuned properly. Cheers. Erik (and yes, it starts first time now 🙃 )

Hi chaps, Ok thanks. So I will leave this setting as is for now... If it's not broken, don't fix it! Cheers Erik

Hi there, thanks for your answers. Ok Bowie, It makes sense for me to try to tune WUE first, as it lasts longer during engine warming, so you have time to try different values... or let TS do its magic... to try and have a smooth running after the ASE timeframe... and then finalise the 3 crank/fire cold starting issue by just upping the starting fuel with ASE... so will try in this order then, never mind if starting not perfect for the moment. Mr Fridge, yes I understand this, but the question is, what is the point in rising the rpm value for cranking speed ? If I remember, my cranking speed is about 160/200 rpm, so as long as it fires, it goes above 300 and switches to the maps... Thank you gents Have a nice weekend (no MS fiddling for me this weekend Cheers Erik

Thank you all for your answers. I will try to reply to all the points of interest Quagmire, thank you, yes, I am progressing slowly in the real darkside of MS1... cold start and warmup. My cranking rpm is at 300 rpm, the value found by default in my ecu, and I believe in all the MSQs I have came across up to now : extraefi, Nige's, Popular defaults... Fridge, thank you, I did not know the factory cranking rpm is 518... as the engine manage to keep on running at about 500 rpm... I am a bit afraid of using such a high value. Yet, is 300 fine or should I up it to 400 for example ? I must admit I do not understand the benefit of upping this value ? Bowie, thank you very much for sharing your settings and your explanation on the Bl***y Iac plunger self moving ! My ASE time is set also as per the default founds in the msq listed above, and also following several Nigel posts were he usually advocates for a longer ASE, even up to 20 secs !?! Yet, I am very interested in your using the fixed MAP value of 90 kpa... I should indeed try your settings to see how different it behaves. Thank you About the priming pulse, repeatedly switching ON/OFF without firing, while my settings were prime twice at 4 ms... might have nearly flooded it, so this is why, for the moment, I made the priming pulse to 0. I will try moving it back to say 2 ms and if it doesn't start, I will try to crank again without switching the power off/on each time, as to prevent the priming to be repeated several times without firing. Now, Fridge, even with the prime set at zero, the fuel pump still runs for about 2 sec anyway to build up pressure. Following general consensus, I will keep on playing with my ASE for the moment, and once it runs from first crank, will try tuning the WUE, maybe with the autotune feature I am just a bit concerned that if I make ASE fine, but at the end of ASE it feels lean during WUE, that when you up the WUE, as it is cumulative with ASE, on next cold start, it might feel too rich during ASE time ??? So would it make sense, when upping the WUE, to decrease a little the ASE accordingly at the same temp, so it gives "the same" afterstart amount of fuel ??? for example, in my case, at 27°C ASE = 16 and WUE = 117, so ASE+WUE = 133, and in the log above, with a CLT at 23.9°C, there is a Gwarm value of 137, which seems to decrease with ASE timing and WUE time-frame, so I believe the Gwarm is ASE+WUE, hence the total enrichment for warming up... So when it starts running, engine receives Gwarm = ASE+WUE. If Gwarm is good for the engine to start by tweaking ASE... and then you change WUE, because after ASE time it runs too lean... then the Gwarm at next start, during ASE, will be richer ??? does this make sense ??? Cheers Erik

Dear MS Friends, Weekend update as usual… Thanks Mr Fridge, i will try to work on this smoothing matter. Now back to cold starting. First cold start of the weekend Friday night… I think I nearly have flooded it. For several reasons (more on this later), the first one might be that I had the prime twice at 3 ms… but each time I turned key off and on between tune modifications and tries… it primed twice without firing… So I finally put some throttle in, and it started… Second start of the weekend, Saturday, after leaning a bit the ASE and putting a prime pulse at zero for the moment : 1st crank = start, rpm rise and stall 2nd crank = nope ! 3rd crank = started, and stayed alive… but really slow just above 500 rpm until end of warm up, gradually rising and then ok. When warm, played with the PWM IDLE valve settings to see which value gives what kind of warm rpm… but nearly no effect … closed dc value / max dc value… no difference !?!? damn it ! Is the valve seized??? Switch off engine, remove valve plenum side to be able to see inside the valve and plug back the plenum. Warm start ok… played with the settings, and the valve gate works ok… WTF !!! Then, with engine running at warm idle, took of the plug from the plenum… and no change, it was barely sucking air… see what I mean… some maybe yes already (please don't kick me on the head )… by laziness, I had left the stock Lucas IAC valve in its place, and I don't know why, but the plunger seems to have moved little by little to its closed position… so no air of course whatever the PWM idle valve position !!! Removed stock IAC and plugged the hole with a megasquirt-V8 magical plug… started and hey presto, about 2000 rpm with the idle air port opened to free air. Refitted the PWM IDLE valve, and it works nicely as it should… so, this Saturday cold start was a missed try because no extra idle air added… but, I now have a working PWM idle valve… even switched to closed loop to see a little how it was working, but back to warm up only for the moment !! I understand… one step at a time [note to myself : should post a picture of my pwm valve arrangement, as the disco engine bay lacks space to put it on megasquirt-v8 nice bracket !!! so ended up like Mr Noisy and Bowie I believe (I had asked about this in a previous thread recently) ... so with it hanging of the tubing... but that could have been worse finaly] Third start of the weekend, Sunday now with a working pwm idle valve set as warm up only : 1st crank = start, rpm rise and stall 2nd crank = start, rpm rise and stall 3rd crank = started, and stayed alive… and faster this time the pwm idle valve works ... but seems lean. Please have a look at the capture below… you can see the three crankings… each time, during cranking, the PW is at about 4.7 ms or so, and when it fires, makes a spike to about 9 ms and falls back to about 3.8, and then start climbing again until stall… except on third try… it stays alive… why is that ??? I have also attached the log file of this cold start, so any analysis of it could please help me to what kind of modification I should do to my settings (in "direction" and "quantity")… thank you in advance. Do I need bigger cranking pulse, so it stays alive during the transition to ASE, or is my cranking pulse just fine as it fires already, and I need to boost up the ASE more I believe to keep it running ??? but by how much ??? During the warm up phase, it feels lean imho… if someone could confirm by looking at the log attached please ?? Here are my settings at the moment below. I believe the VE and spark table are fine for now, as warm it drives really well. By the way, my req_fuel is at 19.6 and my idle cell VE is at 46… so that can give a reference idea of the global fueling to go with the settings below. To finish with, Sunday, I went for a little run with autotune on… which barely changed a few cells by +/- 1 count in hard setting… so might not be too far away… yet my problem remains on [MS mode off] a terrible vibration when slowing down, foot off throttle, above 80 km/h… added a few shims to rear trailing arm to have the t-case and diff propshaft yokes parallel… but still the same… I hope it is not a front propshaft issue (DC propshaft)… next available weekend, I will swap my mud tires with a set of regular road tires on alloy rims to hopefully rule out a wheel balance issue… but if so, why would it be worse on overrun than when accelerating ??? if still the same, will try driving with CDL and removing one propshaft at a time… next tries will tell… any ideas still welcome… sorry for the off topic blabla [MS mode on] Thank you again for your support guys Cheers Erik cold start 2018-07-01_16_cut.zip

Hi there, Peter, thanks for your post and wise advice... I will try to do it one thing at a time, which is frustrating when you can't wait to go ahead and make it better , with the WUE autotune first... then will see... for ASE... Fridge... thanks for your contribution... I might get your quote printed and hanging on the wall !!! Anyone to comment or suggest ideas on my previous "big" post as to : => smoothing/increasing advance at the top of the first columns of my spark map as Bobtail84 explains ?? => smoothing manually my VE table as Nige usually suggest ?? => showing me your PWM idle control warmup only settings to get an idea of working setups ??? Thank you all Cheers Erik.

Hi there, thanks Quagmire for this interesting reading. Yet, I find it difficult to know if my cranking/ase/wue are too lean or too rich... Cheers Erik

Hi everyone, So, bit of an update after the weekend and further tuning… 1°) SPARK MAP : Following advice from the above posts, I uploaded my new spark map and afr tables. Cold start is still a pain : first crank = fire then stall / second crank won't start / third crank with some throttle will start, but rough as hell, keeping it running with throttle, and after a few seconds, I can leave it alone and it will idle very slow till a better temperature and its nice warm idle. My warm idle is still good for me at about 800/850 rpm – 40 kpa – 10 °advance – 13.5/13.7 afr After re-reading Bowie's post above about spark table hollow around idle, and also finding a post and spark map by Ancien Geek with quite high advance at low revs above idle kpa, and a very interesting post and table from Bobtail84 for a standard 3.9 with headers, see quote below : Bobtail84 spark table suggestion for a 3.9 with headers… … your spark map is too retarded in the 500 to 1500 rpm range. When you put your boot to it the map KPA will rise to 95ish and the spark is between 6 & 9 deg. The engine will bog down and struggle till you get the revs up. The map is like a dizzy curve and tuners have been trying to get dizzies more advanced at lower revs for... well for ever and they cant. With MS you can give it lots Try this one instead I must admit that what he says above is exactly what happens to my engine when bleeping the throttle at idle. I chickened out to load this map as is, with so much advance in the idle and upper left corner, so loaded my scheduled map instead from the above posts, and did the following tests and modifications. While happily idling in the 40 kpa/800 rpm cell, I engaged drive with brakes on… rpm dropped to left most column and map rose nearly one row. I then increased the advance in this new "auto in drive idle cell" to make the engine sound better. Back to neutral : ok / engage drive : yeah, much better hold on the revs. Now, with drive engaged, I also turned the AC on… new even more important drop in revs, and map climbed nearly a row again… so on this new in gear + AC cell, I increased advance to make it sound happier. Then I tried to smooth the cells on their right to make a transition with the rest of the map. It gives the map below, which provides me for now a strong idle, including when engaging gear and/or AC , without PWM idle valve in closed loop : YEAH !! Now, I am sure some grown ups could please suggest from their knowledge how to smooth a little bit more this new spark table. Please !!! I find also, as Bobtail84 says, that increasing the advance in the cells just above idle in the 500-1000 rpm helps improve the hesitation on throttle bleep at idle… and also, first run after this new map, I have no more hesitation when starting from a stop and applying throttle… double benefits !! From all the above… do you think it would be a good idea (yet still "safe") to load/try bobtail84's spark map above ?? I am a bit worried about the 13 deg advance at the idle cells and up to 27 above… but what he says makes sense. What do you guys think ? 2°) Tuning : From then on, I went for a tuning run with the new afr target table, and tried to cover the map as best as I could… except for the high rpm area, as when I tried, the car suffered from a big (read near dangerous) vibration on the motorway at 120 kmh and being under full acceleration… with the 3inch lift and mud tires… scary shake … I think my rear chassis side trailing arms bushes are worn out and the rear axle might be moving / wrapping, and also throwing out the propshaft UJ pinion angle, hence maybe the vibrations. But engine wise, it drives REALLY well already … also, I can confirm that my warm stalling issues with the LUCAS is GONE for good… might indeed have been the F*****g AFM on its way out !!! Here is the coverage map from TS autotune of Sunday's run (the cell change is faithfully empty as I did the screenshot after a cpu burn/tune save) As you can see on the attached pdf file, "ve table changes.pdf", here are my first ever VE map on top, and the latest one at the bottom, with circled in blue the cells that seem to have not been visited… I know NIGE is good at studying that kind of map and smoothing it out… so, Nigel, please, if you are around, or some other MS grown up, could you please comment/suggest any manual mod to my current VE map, PLEASE ?? 3°) Cold start : PWM IDLE VALVE, etc… As instructed to, I have not yet fiddled with ASE/WUE, but as each time I start from cold, it requires throttle… I felt it needed extra air, so as Bowie does, I felt like why not plumb the PWM IDLE valve in and set it up as warm up only … So this is what I did. When engine was warm and running, I plugged in the valve (not plumbed in) to find its closed dc value by looking inside directly, which for my valve is 70. Then I typed in the following values, but here again, I would really appreciate to get your suggestions/comments on the values to input here (BOWIE please… if you have settings from your running warm up only setup which I could try to translate to mine ???) I will really see the difference on the next cold start, but I am not too sure about the cranking dc value / idle duty at lower temp / fast idle and slow idle temps… any feedback welcome. 4°) ASE/WUE : Considering the low rev side of my VE map might be alright, maybe I can start playing around with the ASE/WUE to improve my cold starting, as the VE map itself might not be changing that much in the cells where the ASE/WUE might read ??? May I proceed masters ;o) ? If so, I admit I am a bit lost on which way to move the values around… I believe, I might work on ASE first maybe, as it happens in a limited time frame from cranking, and then try the autotune feature for the WUE from cold ??? ...else, what is the correct step by step way of tuning ASE/WUE, as they will have an effect on each other I believe !!!!!???? Thank you all for your attention and support Cheers Erik. ve table changes.pdf

Bowie thank you SOOO much for your post and spark map idea. Autotune can take care of a base starting VE map for a good part... but for the spark map, you need to have a good starting one, and messing with it... well, you need to know what you are doing. So first hand knowledge from a grown up and working setup is good to have I am sorry, my native language is not english, and I am not sure I get it right on your first sentence about : " for one thing I think I reined the advance in the idle cells back a degree or two" Do you mean that you current table is modified from the picture posted by reducing by 1 or 2 degrees the cells at idle ? say 12 / 9 or 13 / 10 for example instead of 14 / 10 for the 40 kpa row at 500/800 rpm ?? Good thing is, my static idle behaves just like yours, say 40 kpa at 850/900 rpm, as is only with the base idle screw on plenum, with an AFR at about 13.5/13.7. I get the idea how the hollow in the spark map works. Thank you for that clear explanation. I will start this way and I will start with the warm up only for the PWM as you suggest, to at least get a better starting from cold... and if the idle is not strong enough then, I might try to fiddle with closed loop... but for this weekend it will be new spark map and warm engine VE tuning for the moment. Just one last thing Bowie : Have you found your laptop, or is this just a screenshot of the table you had on file ? ... as with the details you gave above, I am still VERY VERY interested in having a spying eye on your current msq... which would seem to be quite very close to my engine ... PLEEAASSE Thank you again for your valuable support Cheers Erik.

Hi guys, thanks for the latest feedback re my maps. Can't wait for the weekend to load the latest spark map above and try out to tune the VE table with it and the latest AFR target above too (FF, will try not to forget to save msq before each change and record some logs...) Hopefully, if the family is not too much after me, I could do a bit of driving and tuning... Garry, I am sorry to read your posts above. The MS grown ups here know what they are talking about, and for our old generation (basic ?) engine, all the more fitted in our tanks (not race track cars), the MS1 is all the basic stuff that we need. Sincerely, at the beginning, I did the MS spark only with EDIS and kept my lucas ECU (while the grown ups here were telling to do it all straight away)... and I know I am not alone, I finally did it the full way as invited to at the beginning ... as the LUCAS was finally driving me crazy (I have posted everywhere in the world for weird warm engine stalling issues with the LUCAS to no avail). Hopefully, on the first 3 runs with full MS, with a dreadful spark map and not tuned yet VE table, it seems that the problem has disappeared ... bit early to shout out victory, but crossing fingers... believe the problem was in the MAF... and this expensive part is now forgotten !!! I now have to tune my VE table with the "popular" spark table above, and after that, dial in the AE/PWM/ASE/WUE to make it an everyday friendly vehicle, but already, on the not so good untuned tables... IT DRIVES !!!!! For the spark only, I did my wiring with caution, and it started and worked first time no worries. For the full MS, well adding fuel to spark, did the same, and started on first crank... ok, then stalled because of the tune not good yet, but with a few seconds of throttle, it starts when cold and when warm, it starts on the first crank !!! So with MS1 and the help from the knowledgeable peeps in this forum, honestly, it CAN be done... then comes the tuning... but I believe tuning any kind of ECU requires fiddling settings and knowledge !!! Cheers Erik.

It's me again About the AFR Target table, take into consideration Bowie's comments, and the fact that I use more the low revs than the 4k+, I still wanted to have a smooth transition from idle to low/mid rpm as Quagmire says, so I tried to make an average of all this below. What do you think about this one then for my next runs ? Thank you all ! Cheers Erik.

Hi MS grown ups thank you all for your feedback. Honestly, I really do not have near enough knowhow / knowledge to tune without autotune... for now. On next available run, I will try this latest spark map, thanks Ian. As to AFR targets, I quite understand what you mean Bowie, and might then reconsider my AFR target table by merging the 800/1200 into a 1000 rpm column, and add another column at 3500 rpm, as I reckon I rarely go beyond 4000 rpm... so my most used range is 1000-4000 and this way, I would have 7 col out of 8 in the my common running range... As to the idle itself, for the moment, I have found a VE value for my idle cells, so indeed won't let autotune change my idle point cells... and also found out that in autotune, you could select these cells, and select a lock function, so autotune will not modify them. That's neat !! Bowie, indeed, if you could dig out your buried treasure laptop, I am still please definitely interested by your latest happy running msq and load compensation strategy ... so I would definitely cheat on it . Thank you so much in advance. This Sunday is father's day here (and I believe in UK too), so no tuning this weekend... rather next one, so in the meantime, I am still very happy to receive every valuable feedback and ideas from my master MSer around here Thank you again, have a nice weekend, and happy father's day to who is concerned. Cheers Erik.

Hi gents, thank your for your feedback... yet, designing new afr maps and spark maps is way beyond my engine mechanics knowledge Yet, I tried to understand what you mean, and tried to dial in a new AFR TARGET table from your suggestion and from all the rover V8 AFR target tables I have gathered here and there (mine original above was from one of Bowie's post ). Anyhow, what do you think about this one then ? Does it seem worth a try ?? I tried to leave it a bit richer on the low rpm and near my idle point... might need a little leaning maybe around cruise area when I will know where it is !!!!! Ian, as to the spark map... a bit of the same story, I kind of understand what you mean, but I have not enough engine mechanics background to be able to draw a table by myself... and I am afraid to play with timing as I have read too much warning about too much advance being harmful... so a bit nervous on which values to input. So tried to do as you suggest, generated a map from your link, and compared it with various spark maps gathered for rover V8 on LR4x4, and mainly softening this a little because of the above . Keep in mind my engine is a 3.9 serpentine LOW COMP 8.13:1 or 8.31:1 (I do not remember the exact number, but under 9), no cats. Therefore, what would you think about this one spark map for a try (based on one from Nigel from a post somewhere...) ??? Please tell me if ok or where to modify... Thank you all very much for your support, every input is highly appreciated Cheers Erik.

Hello everyone, while I do not have access to the car this week and for a week more, I am still thinking about what I should do next. If you could please share your thoughts on the above post it would be great, mainly : -> the beginning of the cold starting log to give me ideas in which direction I should move things -> the end of the cold starting log, to tell me if the readings at idle seem good enough to leave it as is Also, before messing with AE, etc... what would you manually tweak/smooth on the VE map below before the next tuning run, considering I have a flat spot/hesitation when applying throttle to drive from a stop for example : Or maybe, it is my spark map below which would need tweaking to help solve the hesitation on "quick" throttle movement ? Also, to finish with, before I can do further tuning sessions, please find below the AFR TARGET TABLE used up to now for my previous runs. Do you think it is good, or would it need tweaking to provide a better tune ? Thank you very much in advance for your valuable help Best regards Erik.

Ok chaps, a bit of the weekend update... I have rechecked all the spark settings in my project were fine : no prob to my eyes. Then I started from cold while logging. Of course, during start, there is no usable AFR, as at power on, it warms up and does not send any output while heating. Yet, hopefully, a grown up could please have a look at the starting log attached and maybe give me some advice on which way I can improve the cold start. Anyway, starting was way better than first time !!! First crank = fire... then stall Second crank = nope Third crank with a bit of throttle = start... and kept it running with throttle a few seconds before being able to release the throttle on a very slow idle... until it warmed up and came back to something around 800/850 rpm. Then I waited till really warm, say about 80°C, and adjusted the cells around idle and smoothed them all to the same value (47) on cells 600+1000 rpm @ 30/40/50 kpa. I have then a nice idle at around 850 rpm, AFR 13.5/13.7, 38/40 kpa, 10 deg of advance. I do not know if I can tweak the idle better ??? until I have the PWM valve fitted as I believe I will have to lower the "base idle" with screw on plenum. From then guess what, I decided to go for the first FULL MS drive/log/tune ... YEAH !!! and it drives pretty well in fact. First run on original one size fits all map was okayish, yet definitely rich, as I saw several time the AFR showing in the 11s. Ended doing three runs, the first two logging, then MLV => VE ANALYSE, re-smooth my idle cells at 47. The last run, I did with TS autotune turned on, but not automatically applying to the ECU, so at the end of the run, I could see the changes and decide to apply then. Once again, accepted and re-smoothed my idle cells. All "autotunes" above being done with a wideband innovate LC1 default settings and cell change to EASY (AE disabled, EGO correction diabled, fuel cut off on over-run disabled). Faithfully, I did not have free time enough to make a new drive with this last map. So for our kind MS grown ups around here , can you please give me your feedback and advices, on the attached files : - a pdf file showing with the progress from the first VE table to the last one. - my last msp - the last TS autotune screenshot showing the map coverage From the first tune already, the modified cells would not let the AFR go in the 11s, but rather in the 13s, which is quite satisfying From now on, what would you recommend doing ? => I believe a bit more driving to try to cover more of the VE table. As with an autobox, there are some areas not easy to go into. On last run, going down hill, I locked the box in lower gears, no throttle, to go into engine braking, and it poped poped poped a lot in the exhaust... => Also, I found out that after a run, when I stop the car and let it idle, the time to make the ve analyze, etc... the idle on the hot engine is higher, say to around 925/950 rpm, AFR and MAP ok, but faster... and If I wait long enough, it will slow down as the engine cools a little maybe... Should I re-adjust the plenum idle bypass screw to have this HOT idle to 800/850 ??? (surely yes when the PWM IDLE valve will be fitted I guess) => Other thing bothering me is a dead spot with a quick change of throttle, mainly when starting from a stop for example. For the first tuning runs, AE is turned off with a big value in TPS threshold, so I am sure it has to do with this... but how do you tune the Accel Enrichment ??? => Then : the cold start and warm up... will need to be tweaked, but I believe I should wait to have the VE table tuned more maybe ??? although I know now my "nice" idle cells are in the 47... so tuning the rest of the table might not change this anymore (as I manually retype them each time) as far as starting is concerned ??? => Last thing : the PWM IDLE VALVE ... I know with a good tune (but am not sure to know enough to manage such a good tune) it should be possible to do without the IDLE VALVE... but the autobox + AC + possibly winch loads would surely be more easily dealt with... with the PWM idle valve... and also the cold start, as I believe at now, it is missing air (as I could see from last start). Ok then, a few files attached, so if you could please comment on these and tell me what I should do next, it would be so great. Thank you so much for your support Cheers Erik. 2018-06-10_14.39.04 cold start and idle.zip Erik 3-9 auto 20180610 tune.msq 20180610 first real tuning session.pdf

G'day Charlie, we are nearly neighbors ;o) Ok, concerning the A/C, this is applicable to the loom of my 1998 discovery 1 with LUCAS 14CUX, so you will have to double check that the wire colours and LUCAS plug pinout match yours also. On Lucas plug pin N°21 there should be a GY (green with yellow strip wire) coming from the AC logic relay, providing a live voltage to the ecu, telling that AC function has been requested. From that, the LUCAS ECU, if it feels everything is good to go, will activate the AC compressor clutch relay. To do so, it will ground a thin BS (Black with grey strip wire !! carefull, there is another fatter BS wire which is a constant GND) on its PIN N°33. Once you have identified these wires, (unplug LUCAS ecu plug, find the wires, do a continuity test between the pin in plug and the wire itself... little cut in the insulation at the place you intend to cut if it is the good wire), you can cut them and test to be sure. For peace of mind, isolate the free wires cut LUCAS side. On loom side, with IGN on, check that you indeed get a live voltage on the GY wire when you activate the AC button + fan speed. Also with IGN on, but without engine running, send a ground to the thin BS wire and check that you can hear the AC compressor clutch relay and compressor clutch itself trigger. If so, that is good as gold. Then you can add a relay that would have : => for his coil, on one side, the GND sent by MS ECU (pin 37) to trigger the fuel pump relay, and on the other side the live provided by the GY wire from the AC CONTROLS => for his NO contact, on one a side a chassis GROUND and on the other side the thin BS wire that activate compressor clutch. In this way, if engine is running (fuel pump relay activated) and AC asked, then the contact will close and send a GND to the AC compressor clutch relay... and here is your cold air There is just one weakness in this, be careful... do not crank the engine with AC ON... else all the conditions will be met to have the AC compressor activated, so your starter will have to crank the engine with the AC compressor as an additional load !!! I was thinking about replacing my relay above by a relay with a time delay activation, so if AC controls are on and you start the engine, the relay receives the operating voltages, but will only trigger say 30 secs later on... so hopefully after the engine has already started. Hope that can be of any help Cheers Erik.

Hi and thank you sir for this feedback. So I think I will target 800 rpm still for the moment... hopefully, even without an idle valve, temperature around here NEVER go under 10°C (even under 15°C is really an exception)... so it should be able to start cold not that bad if I manage a good tune... Thanks again Erik

Thank you all experienced squirters for your feedbacks !!! I will double check if my spark settings have not moved, but as I was running the ms spark only before, the spark map was hopefully not that bad, and just before unplugging the lucas, I had double checked with a timing light that the timing was the same as indicated by TS. dead on ! Before uploading Nige's msq to my ecu, I had checked that the spark settings in this msq were similar to my previous spark only settings... but before next start, I will re-double-check ignition settings and spark table are the same as I had before (and post a screen shot this time). From my memory, in Nige's MSQ, the req_fuel was about 17 or so (will recheck again this weekend, as I have not access to the car and the computer till then), and when I battled to keep it alive, I saw the afr reading lean, so I upped the req_fuel to 20 (as this is a value I have seen elsewhere), and it seemed happier. I did this because in the fuel table, with the rough running going on (near stall to 2000 rpm), it was difficult to choose the correct cell and type in and also because I have read in the megamanual that they recommend to do it this way rather than modify the cells in the table, as this could cause these idle cells to be way off compared to the rest of the table, while moding the req_fuel kind of shifts all the map and keep it consistent cell to cell. Since the above, I have not tried to restart it from cold... so I will know this weekend if it starts better after the req_fuel mod I had done ... I also confirm at now and before getting a correct ve table, etc... my idle air pipe is blocked and pwm valve is not fitted yet. From memory, I also had switched the EGO correction as Mr Fridge suggest (0% authority) Now, when it was warm, it was quite okayish, so I believe I can keep the req_fuel which I have typed in, and from now, when warm tweak the cells around the idle point to smooth it as you all suggest. Again, when it was warm, from mem, advance showed 7/8 degrees, so I believe it is not that off. So for this weekend : => recheck the settings => try cold starting with the last richer settings, and try loging this time to have a better knowledge of what is going on (replay ) => when warm, adjust the VE values for the idle cell and those just around, to have a good idle ==> what idle speed should I "target" : 800 rpm ? (considering it is only "base idle" without idle valve) ==> should I try to lower the idle ve cell values... as it leans, maybe up a little the advance... which might up the speed, so close the idle bypass screw on plenum... is this the way to achieve the lowest idle MAP (seems to be the target) ?? or should I just leave it as it is now, say warm idling at about 800 rpm with AFR showing about 13.5 and MAP 40/45 kpa !?! => then, what is next : go for a first gentle drive while loging to tune the VE table ??? Crossing fingers it will be an easier starter now and looking forward to do a few tuning runs, so my VE table looks good and I can then tweak in the rest to have a good cold start and the PWM idle valve fitted (to account for the winch, lights and the A/C loads when they kick in ... I managed to make a mod to the lucas loom so the A/C is still working with the MS, as the 14cux was "driving" the A/C compressor clutch) Side not : Quagmire, good to now that with a good tune, it should be able to start, run and warm up without an idle valve fitted... I believe your idle speed is then set only by the idle air by-pass screw / throttle plate... what is you target idle speed then ? Thank you all for your valuable help. Will come back with further questions, and details, screen shots, logs, etc... Cheers Erik.

Hi gents, ok, I will try a quick summary first... target : 1998 discovery 1, 3.9, autobox, low comp engine, no cat from factory (Rest of the World market spec ) and tubular headers (Rimmerbros complete Sport Stainless Steel Exhaust System). Been running on lucas 14cux + MS1'n'EDIS spark only for about 6 years. It already has an LC1 wideband fitted and connected to the ECU. Finally decided to take the full MS free fall . Wiring finished late this last weekend. Checked every thing was consistent on the DB37 (GND/Live/sensor signal/etc) Plugged in the ECU Power ON : checked all gauges were reading ok and calibrated TPS As a separate note, before first full MS start and before unplugging the lucas, while it was still running, I have done a base idle speed setting with the screw on plenum near the throttle plate to 800 rpm (stock IAV valve hose plugged), and left the idle air valve hose plugged, so there is no other air coming into the plenum except throttle and throttle bypass screw. Then, even if I had no time for it at this moment, could not resist the temptation to start the engine... By the way, MS1 extra 'n' EDIS 029y4 ECU loaded with latest msq from Nigel (thank you so much Maaaster) First start : crank, immediately fire (YEAH !!), but stalls within the first few seconds Second start : the same... surely ASE/WUE needs tweaking... and from cold might need a little extra air maybe... Third crank : prevent it from stalling with the throttle during a few minutes until it reach a better temperature, lots of pops and bangs, nearly stall, rev to 2000 with wideband reading lean, nearly stall, etc... till temperature climb and then reach a better idle. adjusted/increased the reqfuel value to 20 to have a good 800 rpm warm idle at about 13.5 AFR, as I did not want to modify the VE map yet Don't kick me, I have not had the good reflex to log all this, should try next weekend to log everything... So here are my questions now : What is the best "procedure" to go on from there and tune properly without screwing everything up ? 1°) what is considered to be a good idle ? I have not much engine mechanics background... so I can read sensors, but difficult for me to estimate by "ear and nose" if the idle is set as best as possible. I understand I must have a good enough idle before trying to drive the car for tuning. Tried to lower a little the reqfuel when hot, but rpm climbed a little and afr climbed a little, but engine seemed less happy, MAP not moving that much Tried to up a little the reqfuel when hot, but rpm down a little and afr down also, engine note still about ok, MAP not moving that much I read that best idle was achieved with lowest MAP... but find it difficult to find this compromise. I believe it is a matter, when engine warm, to tweak : base idle screw, req fuel, advance... to achieve the least MAP at the target rpm... But what is the good "procedure" to fiddle with these 3 variables to achieve the best, at least real good idle tune and at which target rpm ?? 2°) I understand I should first get the VE table right before messing with ASE and WUE, but at now it is a real PITA to start... ... and there are so much settings in ASE/WUE, and everything happens so fast after cranking (within a few seconds), that I do not know what to tweak, in which order, which "direction" (up/down) and which "quantity"... Later on, I will install and plumb in a PWM idle valve, but as I understand I need to have the VE table, ASE and WUE set up first, so it is not fitted at all at the moment. So to start the engine, seems like it is missing the extra air to be provided by the idle valve. Do you think I should install the PWM IDLE VALVE anyway but as "warm up" only maybe for a start ??? if so, any suggested settings ??? 3°) Bowie, if you are around reading, I have read several times that you have backed off from using the PWM valve as closed loop, as with a good tune, you could do without it. Are you still running a 3.9 with autobox ? Is it modified from a stock one ? Could you please share with me your latest MSQ, so I could get some "inspiration" from your settings ? I believe this is a starter and you should see me coming back here often to ask for some wise advices on how to tune my MS now Thank you for your support guys Cheers from South Pacific Erik.

Hi everyone, a little update since last post and a new question (I asked it directly to Nigel by pm, but though it would be interesting to ask it here also, as it might help others...) Nige kindly sent me his latest "bestguess magical msq" for my tank. Thank you again ! To summarize it up a little : I have a MS1 n EDIS already fitted, doing spark only at the moment (and for years), and in progress to do fueling soon I hope (waiting to finish up the wiring). It is a 029y4 I also have a Innovate MTX-L wideband already fitted for a while, which in my registered TunerStudio V 3.0.28 displays correct AFR compared with the dash gauge. As I was not near the car and had a spare time this weekend, I just wanted to have a look at Nige's msq, to see what the settings look like inside. So, I was NOT CONNECTED. I opened my current working project in TunerStudio, which is setup in project properties as Innovate LC-1 default 0-5V = 0.5-1.5 lambda. I then loaded Nige's tune .MSQ. I first had a warning about the MSQ being 029q and the project being 029y4 : ok. then, I received the warning below : 2 Warnings: Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for afrBins1! AFR found in current configuration, Volts found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units. Warning: MSQ Units Mismatch for afrBins2! AFR found in current configuration, Volts found in MSQ, values were not converted to new units. I then browsed around various settings, and to a newbie eye, all looked all right. EXCEPT, the AFR target table 1, which definitely shows crazy afr targets... see attached !!! I believe these crazy values might be linked to the Units mismatch for afrBins warnings above... but what can I do to make it ok and have in the AFR Target table 1, Nige's correct AFR target table ??? Maybe it is linked to the 029q/029y4 problem and corresponding ini files, but it might also be a settings problems that I have missed something somewhere ??? Any clue how to sort this out anyone please ? I am not ready to tune yet :o) Thank you all for your support Cheers Erik

Hi gents, Nige, you are the KING !! Thank you. I just tried sending again emails to your gmail address... hoping they can get through or that I receive your answers. If by the way you could please send me back by email one of your best guess 029y4 MSQ for my standard 3.9 autobox discovery 1 with MS1'n'Edis, that would be fantastic. Many thanks. Thank you all also for your feedbacks. (and yes, I have a registered Tunerstudio ) Cheers Erik.

Hi Nige, Thanks for your post, but I might have some email problems... as the last two emails I sent you (and it seems a few other peeps i sent emails too) got no replies (not even read return receipt), but some others go through smoothly... Internet mysteries!! As I use no spam filters. I will try again to email you tomorrow my answer to your email about a week ago and the msq Just for general knowledge sake, could you please just confirm or deny if a 029v msq can safely be loaded in a 029y4 ecu? Thanks for your valuable support Erik from New Caledonia

Hi Folks, another newbie question for our helpful MS experts please ... My ECU is an MS 1 extra 029y4... Can I load onto it an msq from an MS 1 extra 029v ??? or would that cause weird things ?? And by the way, I would really be interested if someone around could please supply me with a working 029y4 msq for a standard 3.9 autobox discovery 1 with MS1'n'Edis... or at least if someone around has at hand and could please send me Nige's latest 029y4 corresponding bestguessstartall msq for my tank ? Maybe that might matter, the only two non standard features on my tank are : tubular headers and a safari like snorkel... If those enter into play onto a standard MSQ, from your experience, in which direction should things be changed : more or less fuel ? more or less advance ? There are so much things to read about starting and tuning the MS I feel a bit lost in the field and hope to be able to start on a usable msq, and tweak from there on by small steps, being able to back off on a previous msq if needed... still gathering data and parts for the moment, and slowly advancing the wiring. Thanks for your support Cheers Erik.