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Belgian_Dude

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  1. I just checked out the last few logs, and it al seems much better now with Simultaneous injector staging PW now tops out at about 16ms, whereas in the old logs I see values up to 25,5 %also O2 is now cleanly switching, and Gego runs between 85% and 102% indicating it's now rather rich than lean wich is a good thing will do some more tuning today, and report back - hopefully it should now start going like the firebreathing 4,6 I hoped it to be if it does, and it remains below 20ms PW, I see no reason to start fiddling with pumps ... I can't think of any downsides to simultaneous injector staging, am I missing something? Fuel is just waiting around anyway ... and economy is not one of the goals of this build ! grtz, Q.
  2. Allright, time to give some feedback Started out today by testing the lambda on a blowtorch, and it didn't seem to react quite as quickly / well as expected, so swapped that for a new one and went for a drive. started out with the base map again, and quickly ran out of juice again: values up to 200 VE and still running lean in the top end. then, Elbekko noticed the pulse width was up to 25-26ms, which apparently is some kind of maximum (I still have to read op on that ) anyway, I set the injector staging to Simultaneous instead of Alternating, which if I get it should give each injector basically twice the time to inject the required fuel, and the motor felt much happier, snappier and quick! (req fuel changed itself to 5ms from 10 so no change in volume) only tested that for about 10 minutes when I had to leave, but this seems to be a major improvement! working theory is that THOR injectors, combined with the Flapper fuel pump and regulator, don't flow enough to feed the 4,6 at WOT. will test more tomorrow, but already wanted to thank you guys for the input - the lambda definitely switches much better than the old one - I thought as long as it switched it was good, but was proven wrong! greetz, Q.
  3. didn't know, I'll look up how to test a lambda by the weekend and perhaps just swap it out, all of 5 mins work. Smoke: none, except when blipped/revved after sitting idle for a while, it'll puff out grey/black "angry" smoke but never whilst driving, that I can tell anyway. tuning's been done dry - good point but I followed operating procedure ;-) thx,
  4. it's switching ... I've had broken lambda before, which made it stop switching at all and stick rich or lean ... this one, as indicated in the logs, switches at realistic moments. I can swap it, I've a few spare (new), but besides looking at the logs how can I tell it's working well?
  5. ReqFuel is "20" (calculator gives about 18,something so I rounded up) this becomes 10ms since my injector staging is set to alternating - when I change that to simultaneous, it becomes 5ms, so surely this can't matter ?? See screenshot above for all details. haven't checked the pressure. I could, but only without fuel pressure regulator since I'm using a Thor fuel rail which has only one input, no output, so I'm using the pressure nipple as a return ... (obviously removed the pressure valve) this however worked flawlessly on the 3,5 .... the fuel pump is a standard injection 3,5 one, and the injectors are Thor. This is a bit of a questionmark, as I know my FP is running a lower pressure than the thor one (about 2,5bar (theoretical pressure, will try to measure)) vs. 3,5bar for the Thor FP, but I can't find injector specs @ 3,5 bar ... but then again: worked well on the 3,5 engine. I'll try and measure the pressure, perhaps see if I can swap in some Gems injectors or something like that, but I've always read "any modern injector can flow enough" .... thx for the input, Quentin
  6. some more info: I've done loads and loads of reading on MS the 1st time I fitted it, and once again now; I tuned my 3.5 to "more than good enough" and drove it to Russia twice, never missed a beat. however, now, I'm at a loss as to what direction to go in, and I'm also much more afraid to screw up my new engine than I ever was my old 3.5 ... (running lean, knocking, etc.) I can type up pages and pages of "story" behind it, what I've tried etc. but I'm not sure it'll help - I'll gladly answer any question though, and don't expect anything on a silver platter ;-) basically, it started immediately, didn't go into revs until upping the fuel, and now it just wants to keep getting more but doesn't feel like it's driving better + I can't wrap my head around why it would be needing 2,5 times the fuel the 3.5liter engine did ... engine constants being equal. Looking at the logs, it seems indeed the fuel at 250-something is actually being used, as when it dropped off to 130-something (the less tuned part of the map) the O2 values dropped to lean ... which settings, besides engine constants, have a big impact on fueling? any guidance appreated! thx,
  7. Hi guys, need some help tuning me new 4,6L V8 build: 4.0 block, 4.0 pistons 4.6 crank & conrods all-new bearings (main, big-end, cam) and rings honed cilinders mildly ported heads shimmed rockers for correct preload high-torque cam from V8Tuner I've started it successfully on the map that used to run my 3,5, and have started a new tune I think based on some map downloaded on this forum ... probably Nige's. These are my current settings, after a few cycles of logging / tuning (both offline and "autotune") CurrentTune.msq I believe the values are ... a bit off, to say the least. When starting from the base map, it didn't make any power. I added fuel, and immediately felt more which was good but now, everything tells me to keep adding more fuel .... However, despite the floods of fuel going in, it's not "picking up" well, it all feels a bit dull and well frankly, not quite worth the upgrade from my tired old 3.5. I've also attached my last 3.5 map, which I think ran reasonably well but felt "tired" mechanically (although I'm doubting that right now ...). Squirt, fuel rail, injectors, fuel pump, FP regulator, etc. all remained identical. I've also attached a log. 2014-12-14_17.07.30.msl.pdf (not a pdf obviously) please let me know what you need (I've loads of logs and maps and whatnot) and what are the suggested actions to be taken ... If someone has a map for a 4.6 that would be much appreaciated as well ... thx,
  8. hi guys, I need advice ... I recently built a 4.6L engine, and swapped it into my Classic. Unfortunately, I've been unable to drive it for more than about 50 miles because of power assisted steering failure. Setup is pretty simple, and I believe has been built before with success: -Thor 4.6 block & ancillaries (meaning ~2000 ZF pump with its standard pulley and standard drive belt layout) - (rover part QVB101300, ZF part 7613 955 106) -standard Range Classic 4-bolt steering box, was new a couple of years ago and worked flawlessly with the 3.5 and its pump -When first started up and steered lock to lock, it had good PAS -ran for 20' (cam break-in), still got PAS -drove for +-30 minutes, found a leak in the high pressure hose => fixed it by tightening the fitting on the steering box => a few miles later, PAS started playing up. At first, still had PAS above say 1500-2k RPM, then nothing anymore. -swapped the pump, PAS OK again for about 30 minutes, then gradually disappearing -checked and changed: fluid reservoir, inlet hose, outlet hose. whilst swapping out stuff, I would get perfect PAS which would disappear after less than a mile (two turns actually) -tried bleeding it by means of the bleed screw, no air coming out, fluid right away. Turned it lock-to-lock maybe 100 times, no change. Sometimes, revving the engine gets me PAS, sometimes it doesn't. -all this time, fluid level was never allowed to drop too low, and fluid never showed excessive heating. Pump doesn't seem to make much noise, however I'm not getting the usual "I'm working hard"-noise when holding lock either ... Obviously, the next step would be to swap the steering box. However, the unit that's in there is definitely the best I have - bought new less than 5 years ago, + let's not down-play how ****ty of a job that swap is!! I'm rather looking for an explanation, as I can make heads nor tail from these symptoms .... 1) does the steering box have an ajustable over-pressure valve which could be opening too early, given the slightly higher operating pressure of the P38a pump? 2) who's got this pump running a Classic 'box successfully? 3) how do I fix this so I can go drive around my new block and blow up some part of the driveline using all the new Torques ?? attached pic for no reason. thx, Quentin
  9. It runs as a parallel project this week, we built and swapped in some 4,6L engine in my Classic (Thor 4.0 block & pistons, "TVR" 4,6 crank & conrods, Thor ancilliaries, GEMS flywheel, OE GM VR sensor stuck somewhere in the vincinity of it) Since swapping coil leads is easier than redrilling the flywheel, and it's nice to have both team cars running similar setups, we did the same on mine and it fired up right away this proves the MS manuals are, to say the least, unclear in the trim dept, and the setup is viable. Also proves engines run better when sparked at about TDC of the compression stroke rather than random however, the theory and coil order as explaine by Elbekko checks out + Zim's 20 deg trim in MS works as well we should get the P38a running soon, must be something small now, probably mapping / after start enrichment / ... grtz, Q.
  10. For whatever it's worth, my experience confirms this, but I couldn't be bothered fitting the valve right now: start, keep the throttle on (1-3%) for about half a minute, then go ahead and enjoy the v8 rumble, talk to the person asking you what that aluminum box with wires & leds is for 2 minutes, then drive off with perfect idle the rest of the time ... As for the LPG mixer ring, could you post a pic? It should fit the plenum, or in between flapper and plenum, but not be attached to the flapper ... Just to make really sure: you aren't confused with the vacuum or otherwise actuated flapper opening device are you? (the "thing" , various forms available, that pushes the flapper open while on LPG as the engine can't "suck it open") ? Grtz Q
  11. Frederik, Why does the LPG Vaporizer mean you need to keep the flapper? TPS Floodclear is only to tell the engine, without it running, it should crank without squirting fuel - to be used after you've drowned or "flooded" it. Will not come into play with engine running. Grtz Quentin
  12. Hi Frederik, Thanks for the pics! Nice to hear yours is running ;-) I've skipped the LPG part for now, she's running too nicely on petrol, and I'll only be fitting LPG after coming back from tour - won't need it up north anyway, and need all my time for more important stuff ;-) Grtz Q
  13. Fridge, I recalibrated the ECU to suit my CLT used as IAT yesterday already, see previous replies That was all I could do yesterday, and added advantage is that it forced me to get to know Easytherm, it's workings, and spawned a better understanding of the whole temp readout mechanism (sensor - .s19 file - .inc files - ... ) I still stand by my idea to use identical and LR sensors though, GM's CLT and IAT are the same curve as well from what I read (though different internals with an open element for the IAT). Also, you'd be surprised how hard and/or expensive it can be to find simple little items like a bog standard GM IAT or one of it's 1354 aftermarket couterparts in this sucky place called Belgium. So to sum up, I now have 2 rover CLT sensors, one for CLT, one for IAT, and an .S19 generated with Easytherm 5.0 using the calibration values * from your thermfactor.inc for both CLT and IAT uploaded into the Megasquirt. (* 2 Celcius = 4000 ohm; 74 Celcius = 362 ohm; 94 Celcius = 212 ohm) Can't think what could be wrong in this setup Greetz Q
  14. ok, update ;-) Thanks for not answering too quickly, forces me to figure it all out myself And thanks for the IAT idea! I decided to calibrate my ECU using Easytherm to use the same values known for rover CLT for the IAT, generated the .s19 file and upped that into the ECU. Nothing changed display-wise in MT, as this display is purely based on thermfactor,matfactor.inc files as stated earlier, but I'm assuming the ECU now finally knows what it's breathing. Started over from the "General defaults" again, and, well, she runs well (couldn't honestly tell the difference though,I'm too biased.) But, more importantly, after a few logs and VE analysis(es?), I'm now seeing proper o2 voltage switching around .510V, and it seems like MLV is trying to up the fuelling at WOT regions less. Will see after more logs if it keeps on upping it like it did before, but definitely more pleased with what I'm seeing in the logfiles, and what MLV is doing with that info. Had another issue, but promptly solved; Engine was cutting out for very short instants, at first only whilst driving at steady throttle and below 25%tps, but after a while it did so on WOT as well, and that's not good. I'd been looking at te log graphs since the second or third instance of this, as it was clearly new, but couldn't figure out what triggered it: RPM plummeted, and everything followed upon that value (VE, spark, DC, ...) but I couldn't find any value (went through all displayable values) that came before the RPM value drop. Also felt the RPM drop, and saw it on my std Rangey tacho, but resolution of my eyes and of the std tach wasn't high enough to see which came first: RPM drop or RPM value drop. But, as I couldn't find any value preceeding the RPM value drop, I opened up the bonnet, and surely, my yet-to-be-wrapped cable loom, specifically the part going to the EDIS8, was touching a spark lead Separated both, gone interference, gone "problem". Greetz Q
  15. ok, found it at last; ERR2946 from p38a GEMS But still don't really get it; I'll be comparing the resistances of both sensors asap. (this is something I've been confused about all along; I've been reading about using the default Range Rover sensors all over this thread, but fact is, this "default range rover sensor" is from a p38a, none of the older (flapper 3,5, hotwire 3,9) have them (well, not separate from the MAF), and they're the kind of engines that get MS'd (nobody does a p38 ;-) ) so how is this still a "default" or "standard" sensor ?? ) cheers Q ps: would you prefer me to start me own thread?
  16. Nige, OK, pretty stupid shortcut I took there. I'm going to try and recalibrate ECU, as that's something I can do with the stuff I've got here. But, tbh, during buildup, I tried to get a correct MAT/IAT sensor, but all sensors I could find off a rangey are incorporated in the hotwire MAF ... would you have a part number plz? (I know there's a separate one in our 4,0 GEMS, but can't find the p/n in the microcat) thx, Quentin
  17. hi mate, Ok, input accepted for the CLT as IAT, but was what I had at the time. Will order one from a 3,9 About the log file, no it doesn't display all zero's, I've got proper O2 feedback visible in MLV (see screenshot attached) (zero's until warmup of lambda sensor of course) Thank for helping me understand Grtz Q
  18. Ok, full day of logging - tuning - testing behind me, head is spinning. strange **** happening; Over the past weeks, I'd already noticed, MLV just wants to do one thing and that's keep squirting in more fuel, esp. everything (W)OT (90kPa and up) As i started from what I thought was a rough map (sorry John ), I let MLV go ahead. But after every log, it would up the fueling by pretty large amounts (10 "units" and up). This morning, I started off with a map having an idle of around 40-45, and WOT values of >150; Surely, that couldn't be right. Also, I didn't drive / pick up as well anymore, but that could've been my ignition ajustments. Anyway, I started back from Fridge's "popular defaults" VE map. Ignition is same said "popular defaults" map, but with 0 "trim angle" and a modified idle range - didn't run properly below 15°, but that's because I started at 10 which already was more pre-ignition than the sweet spot: 6-7 degrees BTDC. With this setup (basically the Popular Defaults + slight changes to spark at idle), she runs much, much better. so, I did a proper log, and all MLV wants to do is up the fuelling again ... But, I know that's not right because if I keep doing what MLV suggests I end up with fuelling of 150+ (at which point it still wanted to up some more!) Even when I set it to Very Hard for the whole map, WOT regions goes up by 8 points average ... Questions: 1)Why oh why does MLV want to keep upping these values (say 1500-4000rpm, 95-100kPa), even though in every single occurence in my logs, they're already rich! (lambda volts ~~0,7V) I don't get it ... 2) can I enable to AFR target tables without a WB Lambda? I want to avoid the EGO correction aiming for 14,7 in areas I want more ... Answers: 1) IAT sensor reading in Megatune is dependant on matfactor.inc, should be next to thermfactor.inc ;-) Nige, both sensors (CLT and IAT) are RR standard CLT sensors perhaps not ideal in temp changing speed for the IAT, but imho that shouldn't be too important, and this way I've got a spare for the CLT which is kinda important Ok, going home now, I'll re-read this later to see if this makes any sense ;-) grtz Q
  19. Hi guys, Another thing I forgot last night: ignition timing; I've finetuned my trigger wheel placement, and limb-home mode is now 10 deg BTDC dead-on. So, I've set the trim angle in MT Spark Settings from the original 8 to 0, and now finally my timing is on the strobe what in reads in megatune. BUT, I would like to confirm, with the below Spark Settings and Spark Map 1, and the trigger wheel at it's theoretically perfect location (I'm pretty sure I'm within 1deg of 10BTDC on limb home) am I in the right ballpark? Second question, I'm still puzzled about CLT and IAT calibration values; Aren't these saved in the ECU's ROM? Why do I run Megatune, read 25°C (the temp I was expecting given the previously observed discrepancies real temp / display temp) for both CLT and IAT (same sensor), then either open an MSQ or connect the PC to the ECU or something like that (imho unrelated to sensor calibration) and suddenly, the megatune will suddenly display a correct 10-15°C for only one of the temps (clt in this case) I've had similar things happening with TPS calibration btw ... So, I guess my question, broken down, would be: does megatune recieve from ECU either "CLT/IAT/TPS is X°C", or "CLT/IAT/TPS is RAW VALUE Y" and proceed to match it through a table somewhere in C:\program files\megatune\... ?? thx Quentin edit: right, MS 1 on v3 board, Extra firmware MSnS-extra format 029q
  20. As requested by Frederic, I've uploaded my pictures. Looking through them, they're not that interesting, just ... a lot of funny coloured wires Didn't exactly sort or select them, as bandwith nor webspace are really limited, but my time is on this end, gave proper tuning a first go tonight (after reading through the msextra tuning guide), trying to get AC - ASE - idle VE right, but honestly, I made it all worse So, next up is more reading, then some more, and then another try Greetz Quentin
  21. Hi Frederik, I'll select & resize the better pics tonight But, be careful, I've honestly no idea how wrong my maps are! they were posted to be checked by an adult at the most, definitely not used by anyone ;-) I mean, I guess you could use them, but I'd suggest you start from the same baseline as I did, namely Fridge's defaults. just ... be careful ;-) I'd hate to melt my engine block, but would hate to melt yours even more ;-) (although, melting mine would mean top gear on the 4,6 crank, pistons and block laying around here ) Greetz Quentin ps: whereabouts in holland?
  22. feed-only fuel rail on THOR confirmed, but I'm successfully running a THOR fuel rail, using the pressure measuring nipple up top for the return line - just screw out the one-way valve ;-) Grtz Quentin
  23. Hi John, I know, made a point of it not to call you until it ran That way, figuring it all out myself, I'm sure never to forget it again. So, a bit more info: been planning this for a couple of months now ... Drew out my specific wiring scheme to make sure to have everything in one place, not have to combine multiple schemes and generally get a better feel and understanding from working with it. (I can share if anyone's interested, but I still need to add the last couple if things that changed mid-install) I ripped out the flapper wiring last weekend (and alarm loom patched in it, and LPG wires patched in it, and the second LPG install's wires patched into the patch ... ). I'd prepped as much as possible upfront: -set of bosch (fancy green coloured) injectors out of a 4.0 BOSCH P38a to replace the old flapper ones and get rid of the resistor pack -the fuel rail that went with them -intake plenum of a 3,9 to replace mine which had been molested by the previous owner -new exhaust pieces between collectors and center pot (downpipes, Y-pipe) with the bung TIG'd in the Y-pipe -... so after ripping out the old harness, I changed my mind about ECU placement. Originally wanted to put it on top of the dashboard (mainly because it would look very cool there), but decided against that because I didn't feel like ripping apart the dash. Didn't want to have it under the seat either, as it would suck finally having waterproof ignition but drowning the control box ;-) So I decided to put it between the front seats, at approx shoulder height. Figured if I'm that deep in it, I've got other problems Built a bracket for the coils, and one for the EDIS8 module. Stainless, both, ofc I started by putting ECU, fuse box, FP and Mrelay on a plaque of wood, and connecting all of those together in the comfort of my bench. then moved the board into the car, and pulled the wiring loom through the firewall. Connected it all up and fired away Mistakes I made: -Fuel pump didn't run on first power to ECU. Connected the connector on top of the chassis, worked better Quick fix. -put the trigger wheel on the wrong way around (missing tooth 5 teeth before the sensor rather than after, because apparently "ahead" is too difficult a word to grasp at 2am when you've been up since 6am and been doing that all week Quick fix. -didn't pay enough attention to the variables in edis8-coils-plugs connections, had it all wrong; quick fix, took the opportunity to label the wires and coils, shouldn't miss again ;-) -ehm ... what else ... that's it I think Effectively first started on sunday around noon, but ran pretty roughly on the standard settings (guess those were fridge's 4,6 and stumppuller settings). But boy was I glad it ran Didn't have any further time that day so I drove it like that to our team presentation and back. Ran hugely rich, didn't idle unless I held a minimum of 1% throttle, this morning, I finally found a working link to a general MSQ - Fridge's "MS_N_EDIS_Popular_Defaults.msq" Loaded that up, immediately ran better - it idled, and actually ran pretty well. Went for a run around the block ... whoa! Where yesterday it would "die" if I gave too much throttle, this morning it pulled, pulled some more, and kept pulling - whoa ;-) did three rounds of logging - VE analyzing in MLV - log again, the two first edits made it better, the third version made it idle poorly so I went back to v2. I'm still "playing around" to get to know the software, which files have what settings in them, etc. and already it's running as well if not better than it was before. Somehow, it magically settled to a perfect idle, with barely any hunting, and goes like it should. Of course this isn't the end, when I'll have all softwares properly figured out I'll be going after the perfect tune - this is fun ;-) TODO: -TPS readout: foot down reads 72%, it did so in the beginning, does so now. I know I got it right at some point between saturday 12pm and this morning, but don't remember with which file/setting/... I don't get where this is stored: it's something the ECU should know, so I would've thought it would be baked into the firmware, just like the ECU knows the values for the rover CTS - but then it's changed and changed back, and as I haven't updated / changed the firmware, it must be in the MSQ. The "calibrate tps" function of Megatune does nothing. Need to go through the MSQ I guess -confirm the static EDIS advance / trigger wheel and sensor alignment - first it didn't idle, then I forgot because I was having too much fun driving it -add the LPG part of things, then finish / protect the wiring loom, and definitively affix the ECU board. -spark: basically haven't looked at it Ditto with the AFR target table, but I'm assuming (ie, making an ass out of myself) that should be pretty ok as-is. -Temp sensors: I've used a std rover temp sensor (coolant) for both coolant and IAT. They seem to read approx 10°C too hot permanently, need to confirm. John, thanks for the file, all the other links were dead Now I've got something to compare my VE table against! attached, what I started from, thx to JU, and what I'm happily running now (after two relatively short logs). Greetz, Quentin
  24. Oh by the way, mine runs Been kinda very effing busy, pulled out the whole flapper cable loom last weekend, fired it up first time (successfully) this morning (that's after I corrected trigger wheel placement and coil lead layout after a non-starter yesterday 11PM) Runs like ****, way rich, but haven't had any time to tune, just drove it out a couple of k's to our Team Presentation today So, if anyone were to have a fuel & spark map for a bog standard 3,5 efi I could download, it'd be greatly appreciated, don't have any time today to make / modify one myself, and this would enable me to properly drive it home late tonight and get properly tuning tomorrow ;-) Next up after tuning will be properly protect and insulate cable loom, and add the LPG part of things ... thx in advance! Quentin
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