Devon 4x4

I doubt you'll get D44F / D44R and OMEN174 / OMEN175 from anyone else but us

Anything more to add to this ?... before you see Simon tomorrow

They were developed after the Outback Challenge where the Range Rover snapped a couple of standard mounts. Granted you are a lot less likely to sustain damage like that on most UK events, but they do look cool

Which bits in particular are "dross" Dave ?

Ahh, well that is an entirely different subject. Can't argue with that, but then we come back to the questions raised earlier in this thread as to how much responsibility the magazines should be aportioned in these situations. Should we insist that magazines only show things which can be verified / certified / approved by a panel of people ? There are magazines and journalists who only ever write about stuff that is "donated" for review... and strangely enough that particular bit of kit always seems to be the latest and greatest thing... I won't name names, but these things don't go unnoticed by either the advertisers or readers. This is clearly extremely misleading and does absolutely nothing for the credibility of the magazines, for the confidence of the advertisers or for furthering the knowledge of less-experienced readers. Here's what I'd like to see... and I say this as an enthusiast, an advertiser and knowing a fair few journalists very well.... Let's have a magazine that isn't scared to tell the truth. If Devon 4x4 produced a product which was terrible... let them review it, let them tell people.... BUT (and avoiding terrible American puns) this is a big BUT... make sure it is done by people with relevant, real experience of what they are talking about. If someone is reviewing winches, it is to be hoped that they have actually had the experience and knowledge needed to make a decent, factually correct article. The number of times I have read articles from self-appointed "experts" about how to build a vehicle, why a certain product is great, how an event should be run, etc. etc. knowing full well that either what they are writing is completely incorrect, or that the person involved has barely ever driven a car let alone built one just pains me. The format works in all sorts of other industries and in the end, I reckon that everyone wins... the magazines get more credibility, the readers get better and more accurate information and the suppliers have to up their game to make sure that standards are maintained. Maybe I'm asking too much.. I need a cup of tea.

I'll put on my best Devon accent for you Ian A couple of points.... Plenty of standard vehicles compete in CSW events, and similar events all over the country... that's why they have standard classes... and long may it continue. The whole point of organisations like CSW was to introduce people to challenge style offroading without the need to throw money at it. I cut my teeth trialling a totally standard Series 3 on a set of SAGs (more years ago than I like to talk about).. I actually prefer to do stuff like that these days... you get to see who can drive and who relies on the equipment ;-) It would be a dull world if everyone drove "Devon 4x4 Traybacks", but I don't think anyone should decry their existance. Just like all forms of motorsport (and sorry if this sounds a bit cocky) but people like things to aspire to. They see a vehicle which has been fully prepped for something like a big international event and want to emulate it, to make their own version, to build on the ideas from that vehicle... it all adds to the diversity. You don't have to spend in excess of £15K to make a competitive challenge truck... but how much do you need to spend to make a truck that can win the OBC Morocco ? I can tell you something with absolute certainty... our trayback was very much in the cheaper end of the vehicles which were at the 2007 event.. (along with the other UK guys like Jim M, Andy C, etc.) The spec of some of the vehicles there would make your eyes water. Someone earlier was commenting that the magazines never featured "normal" people's trucks... well, that is not too difficult to answer. The magazines like to see something with an 'angle'.. something different, something done well on a budget, an amazing restoration, something rare, etc. etc. They also need to know about them ! We phone the magazines and let them know what vehicles we are building, what projects are going through the workshops... when there is something that catches their imagination, we put them in touch with the owners. Just because we are Devon 4x4, doesn't mean we can just click our fingers and get vehicles featured. I have to say, that Total Off Road seem to champion the 'normal' guy's vehicle. Every month you see a vehicle that someone has built in their shed or on their driveway and I love it.... but I like to see new, aspirational stuff too... I like to look at pictures of shiny new engines that I could never afford, of chassis designs that I can get ideas from. Anyway, I've rambled on enough for now in my fake Devonian voice... so I'll be off to drink some Zider

Now now, don't go putting words in my mouth... I didn't say *solely*... I deal with the mags every week, (and have done so in a few different industries) so I know how the system works very well Advertisers are indeed customers of the magazines, but the magazines wouldn't exist for long without their consumers either. Chicken and egg stuff. At some point, you have to put content in that people will pay money to read.

:D What a laugh... I've been reading through this thread, and I reckon that some of you boys have some very strange ideas about how we work down here. As has been mentioned by a few people, the purpose of the 110 build was twofold.... 1) To build a competitive, reliable vehicle for competing in OBC Morrocco and similar events 2) As a devlopment platform / showcase for the products we sell. There are no big secrets here, one of the reasons we documented the whole build was to show people that what we were doing was well within the reach of "normal" people, whether they used the parts / specs we used, or lower spec alternatives. The cost of the bits was indeed around £15K (plus VAT), we deliberately split the costs of parts and labour out because the home builder tends not to charge for that ;-) The 800 hours being thrown around includes a lot of design and tinkering time... things like the rear winch cage, exhaust system, trayback, storage, fuel system, etc. etc. all have to be made, and ideally made in such a way that we can reproduce them for customers if required. We also work in ways that maybe a DIY mechanic might not. Things like building up big chunks of the vehicle, then taking them all apart again for painting, etc. etc. The time also included a full engine rebuild, reworking axles, etc. etc. Could it have been done quicker ? Who knows... It was done in the time it took. We do spend a fair bit on advertising, but I genuinely don't believe that is why the magazines wanted to run an article about our truck... I think that they felt it would be of interest to their readers... and I hope it was. What I can tell you is that it was one of the most popular threads on our forum ever, and is still one of the most viewed parts of our website... so rightly or wrongly, people seem to like reading about it. Now, a couple of things which have made me smile in particular.... for anyone who thinks we are some kind of Formula 1 style slick workshop operation with dozens of staff employed on projects... you obviously haven't been here. Our workshops are superb, there is no denying it... they are kept clean and tidy, the equipment is well maintained, but they are staffed by "normal" people, people who work really hard to achieve the results they do. Take a look at the Range Rover Bobtail build on the site... it was done in a shed, with basic tools. We appreciate the facilities we have, but they are not the reason that we build vehicles the way we do. The "Devon 4x4 PR team" and "staff who build their website"... that'll be me then (I also took a load of the photos of the build, as did Simon and the guys who were actually doing the work.) If anyone wants more information, we'll always be happy to talk to people about the projects.. Keep it coming, it keeps us amused in the office Cheers Tim

Geoff, I think most of the issues have already been covered here... but I'll go over them from an "official" perspective. As mentioned, card processing companies will do absolutely anything to avoid taking responsibility for card purchases. If we deliver to an address other than the cardholder's and there is any claim at all, then we are responsible for the money.. the card company can take it back and we are out of pocket. As a result, we have a policy when dealing with new customers that we only deliver to the registered address. This is not ideal, but it is a sad reality that we got hit for over £3,500 from fraudulent card use in 2005... we got hit for almost none in 2006 after we introduced the policy. The delivery issue is a problem with our courier (Nightfreight). They should not have left the goods without a signature, they should have left a delivery card so that you could contact them and arrange a convenient way to get your consignment (i.e. a redlivery or collection) The fact that the Snorkel is damaged is unfortunate, but the fact that they left it without a signature means that there can be no contest on a carriage claim, and we will of course supply a replacement item. No system is perfect, and we do get occasional problems and for those we can only apologise and try to correct them. Phoning us would get a resolution far quicker than posting complaints on a forum !