Escape

A huge thanks to @elbekko for all his help and for pushing me onwards when I lost motivation! And to all of you on here thinking along or just crossing their fingers. In short: as playing around with the fueling settings didn't seem to make much difference (worse if any), I took a step back and listed what was different from the trial run in the other Range. Fuel pump for one, so we checked the pressure (after cobbling together a gauge that would fit). Close enough, so there was definitely pressured fuel in the rail. That only left the injectors. Rather than take off the manifold to get to them, I decided to do what I would do with an engine on carbs and spray some petrol in the intake. And that obviously did the trick. Still a lot of finishing up to do, but at least now we know we're getting somewhere. 🙂 I'll probably take out the injectors when I tidy up the wiring loom and get them tested/cleaned, just to be sure. But first I want to drive her up and down the street!

The correct procedure is: engine running, in N or P, after going through all the gears and back (with a pause at each gear), at 30-40° (for the older ZF box anyway). Temperature is not that critical, but you do need the engine running and all the valves primed.

Just to be sure, you did have the engine running when checking the level? If not, there will more oil in the sump as it's not being pumped to the torque converter etc. To answer your question, yes, I have heard of overfilling causing excessive slip and potentially loss of drive. So fingers crossed it was an easy fix!

Not really, but hard to tell from just a few seconds running. And I don't wont to idle any longer because of the cam. We'll see if there's a difference if we increase fueling by a noticeable amount.

As with most if not all cars these days, it's all about the imagine and not about driving...

TPS is working, we got it calibrated, even bothered to switch the wires around to MS giving an error that the closed value was higher than the open one (though that shouldn't matter with proper calibration as far as we understand). I checked for air leaks, found one crankcase breather unattached and plugged the hole, but that made no difference. It doesn't smell rich, my guess is too lean as well, so it can't cope with anything but the smallest throttle opening. On the other hand, adding 10% to REQ_FUEL didn't seem to make a difference either. Neither did lowering it by 10%. Guess we could try +20%.

I'll let @elbekko give the details about the fiddling we did, as he's (obviously) the one behind the keyboard, I'm just the greasemonkey turning the key. 😉 Yes, I do need to run in the cam and I know this is not the way to do it. But it's only been a couple of starts of a few seconds each, so not too bad hopefully. I did try to get it to 2000rpm (though annoyingly the tach isn't working yet, so need to look at the display) and that's how we discovered she cuts out when touching the throttle. Best we got was just over 1000rpm and that was with terrible hunting. 😞 Turned off immediately of course.

Some more progress, but not as much as we hoped. We double checked the fuel pump, plugged some airleaks (crank ventilation for example), adjusted the throttle slightly open and after a few tries she finally came alive. She even kept running all by herself. Unfortunately, the moment you touch the throttle, she dies. It feels like fueling rather than ignition. We played around with the cold start setting and acceleration enrichment, made sure it was open loop to take the O2 sensor out of it, but no avail. And we compared live data with @elbekko's running P38. Timing and injector pulse width are very similar, so the base settings seem to be right. The mystery continues, but at least we're moving in the right direction.

The pump is indeed under MS control and primes as expected when the ignition is turned on, so that should be OK. I wasn't planning on any drastic changes, just want to check things as best as we can before continuing. There is no idle air control as of yet, so I should probably keep the throttle open just a bit. Anything on the fuel side we need to check? It's running either the map you provided me or the most recent one from Quentin's 4.6 classic. The latter should be a very good base as he is using the same Bosch injectors and fuel pump (running higher pressure). Hopefully good news by the end of the day!

yes, it could be the fuel pump, I haven't tried jumping the relay yet while starting. It definitely primes when turning the ignition on and runs when jumpered (as a test).

After another rewire we finally seem to have the timing right: no signs of misfires and the engine came alive at last. Not running yet though, she fires and immediately dies again. Which we're hoping is just the air and fuel delivery and settings at idle. I continued with some other wiring and tidying up bits. Starting to look like a car again at last! She's now ready to give it a try in earnest and get the camshaft run in. Keep you fingers crossed on Sunday!

If it's not broken or showing signs of wear/ damage, I would keep what is in there. Not just for axles, but for most things. Fitting new doesn't always make it better, so I'd save the time and money for if (when) something does need replacing.

I just discovered the same thing... That's the better part of an evening head scratching because someone made a mistake in the wiring diagram in RAVE and only corrected it in one place (for another car). Ooh well, now we know and can proceed. 🙂

I'm sure a Rancho with a PRV has been done. Now, a Rover V8, that would be something. And a driven back axle of course. 😁 Don't give me any ideas!!!

Crumbs is pretty much what's left of most by now... I do admit they looked good, not sure I could put up with it as a daily. The M530 is a very nice drive, almost sporty. The Bagheera not so much. I've not had the privilege to drive a Rancho, but don't expect too much either.

It was progress, definitely. Most importantly, we now know where the problem is situated. Which is half way to a solution. I'm also starting to wonder if this is why our previous attempt to get a P38 running with MS, almost 10 years ago, never succeeded. We knew (assumed) it was timing, but never figured out what could be wrong. I'll do the rewiring tonight, definitely have a stiff drink and maybe even try turning the key again. The day has started out pretty good already (despite taking the train), as we got a Matra M530 that hadn't run in 40 years through MOT!

@Bowie69 why did you have to post that?? My dad's 450SLC has been for sale for years, just taking up space in the Workshop as there are no serious candidates it seems. But I'm sure I can find a rusty old Disco and use that as a donor to give it a new life. 😁 Might even be a good idea to keep the OHC Merc V8 is that's quite grunty. Mind you, I don't need LR underpinnings to take classics off road. Not by intention (this time) I should add! The 'road' got a lot worse for the next half mile or so, and no chance to turn back so I had to push on. And lucky the Lotus managed (just). 🙂

Many thanks to @elbekko, not just for getting the scope but mainly for pushing on with the troubleshooting. I always assumed (yes, I know what that stands for...) if the VR was incorrectly wired, there would be no clear signal and thus no spark. Combined with the fact I knew the pin out of the sensor used and wired it accordingly, swapping the wires in the sensor connector seemed all but impossible without doing damage and most importantly, this same set-up actually got a P38 running (way back in '19), I had convinced myself it had to be something else. After testing with the scope we did another log with the MS. And that gave a much better result, no missing teeth in wrong places, all nicely spaced. As Ben said, it was already past midnight by then, so I didn't think it a good idea to push on much longer. The plan for next time is to verify coil A is firing at the correct position, by hooking up one channel to the VR sensor and the other to the coil driver output. We can always double check with the timing light as well. Once coil A is confirmed, we'll do the same for B, C and D. And then we can finally try to fire her up. Another mate has given me a deadline, to join him on a camping and green laning trip end of August. If the engine runs, that should be very much possible. We might even find time to look at the winch as well. 🙂 Filip

That's not what you told me last night! And I wasn't the one who talked about an orange mankini... 😁 All kidding aside, it was a great evening. Now we know the man behind the fan. You're welcome back here anytime.

I'm always up for a drink! I take it you're staying in the center? A taxi from Brussels sounds expensive, and it's actually one of the few railway connections that's not too bad.

I have to disagree. I've had several TD5 start just fine without the electric fuel pump. Easily demonstrated by pulling the fuel pump fuse (which is how I found out, I had removed the fuse and forgot to put it back and still my TD5 started!). The only time it didn't work, was when a pump had failed and blocked the flow. You are of course right that the injectors need 4 bar to work as intended, but they'll cope with lower or no pressure, just not able to deliver full power.

You already did (part of) the purge cycle, by leaving the ignition on a bit longer. That means the pump is running and likely to bleed any air in the system. The none return valve is easy to check, but my bet is on the injector washers as well. The pumps rarely fail and if the rest of the system is in good nick, a TD5 will start even without the electric pump (provided it's not clogged). Not at full power, but enough to get you home.

As far as I know Land Rover never offered a manual option on the 4.6. The R380 as used on the 4.0 is a direct fit and will do the job even though it's not rated for the torque of the 4.6. I've been running that combo for years. As Paul said, an LT85 in decent nick should cope just fine as well if you show it a bit of mechanical sympathy and aren't constantly towing heavy trailers.

No, we don't have an oscilloscope in the Workshop. But I'm working on borrowing one. 😉 As for the VR sensor, it was working in the donor vehicle and we also had this MS unit running a similar engine in another P38. But just as a proof of concept, we never analysed the data while running, just happy she started. The sensor we're now using is the same type, but a different item. Wiring loom is the same (bar some different connectors for temperature sensor etc) but coil packs are different (tested with GEMS, now running Bosch because of mounting issues). Part of me is saying just add fuel and give it a go, it's a Rover V8, it will fire up. But being a new and not so cheap engine, I don't really want to take the risk and make sure it will fire and run as intended so we can immediately do the 20 minute run in for the cam. At least all this testing has proven the oil is up to pressure after just a few revolutions.

I hadn't seen that. And I was quite happy not to...