DHSE1 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Hi guys, So, in a nutshell, I'm completely new to MS, and as such I've absolutely no idea what I'm letting myself in for. I've been reading through many of the posts and threads on this site but still I haven't managed to find anyone who successfully runs a 3.9 (Range Rover Classic preferably),dual fuel, which also runs a closed loop, single point of entry LPG set-up, with the addition of a BLOS (which is sitting in the shed right now!), which is all governed by the mighty MS! I rebuilt my Classic from the ground up (restoration) , but now I'm thinking of upgrades to make the engine run as smooth as it should. I'm fed up with all the annoyances that come with Hotwire 14 CUX , so I think it's time to give a new lease of life to the engine. Will MS do this ? How much of a mad scientist does one need to be to make this work? Whats the turn around time? Anybody have any regrets with their install? All advice is massively appreciated!!! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Do you mean with the megasquirt running the lpg directly (no separate lpg controller)? And what do you mean by single point of entry? A venturi on the inlet type lpg system (and if so why? Do you already have the parts for this?)? I used to have a range rover with a venturi type lpg kit (already on when I bought it), which I converted to megasquirt and EDIS ignition. I never had any regrets about converting it (and wish I'd never sold it). If I was starting from scratch now I'd use multipoint lpg injection, and use the megasquirts table switching to run different fuel and ignition maps for lpg and petrol. If possible ditching the lpg controller completely. I don't know for sure there's anyone out there running that setup, but I'd be surprised if there isn't (even if it's not on an RV8). Although I'd be tempted to play around with directly driving ignition coils from megasquirt, the sensible option would be to stick with EDIS, which is very, very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHSE1 Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 1 hour ago, geoffbeaumont said: Do you mean with the megasquirt running the lpg directly (no separate lpg controller)? Yes, but I have a Leonardo LPG controller at the moment. And what do you mean by single point of entry? A venturi on the inlet type lpg system (and if so why? Do you already have the parts for this?)? Yes, I mean a venturi, or soon to be upgraded to a BLOS on the inlet. My lpg system is running well, and so is the petrol side of things. This vehicle is my main mode of transport. Is there much involved for me switching to sequential? I could buy an inlet manifold, plumb in new injectors, plus buy the solenoids required too. I too shall stick with what seems to work, that being EDIS. What am I to gain by switching to sequential over BLOS or my own setup? Did you have any other engine mods? Were there significant differences to the engine after you complete your installation? 1 hour ago, geoffbeaumont said: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Well, a multipoint injection system should be more efficient and offer better performance, doesn't suffer from a risk of explosions blowing the air intake apart. It's generally better, so if I was starting from scratch I'd go that way - but if you have a perfectly good venturi kit that you're happy with I doubt there's a big enough benefit to worth changing it. Exactly why I didn't change mine. With a "standard" megasquirt I or II you wouldn't have sequential injection anyway (they use batch injection the same as the hotwire system). Sequential injection would require either a megasquirt III or II with an add on board - more expense and complication, and aledgedly little benefit on an RV8. The multipoint LPG systems normally just follow the injector pulses generated by the main ECU, so even using a "sequential" LPG controller I think you'd still actually be getting batch injection on LPG as well. Obviously, if you fancy the challenge you could get everything set up to run sequentially, but it sounds like you're after straightforward, proven reliability (and presumably without spending more than necessary?) - so stick with batch injected petrol and your LPG venturi. So - essentially you're after pretty much the same setup I had. This is a straightforward megasquirt'n'EDIS build, with the addition of the LPG kit. You have two options for switching fuel - either you leave this under the control of the LPG controller (megasquirt thinks it's still running the engine as the hotwire does now). You get rid of the hotwire system and replace it with something easy to diagnose and (relatively) easy to tune, and you have a vastly improved ignition system, but you still have to run a compromise ignition map. Or, you add a table switching input to the meqasquirt, and you can then change the fuel and ignition maps depending which fuel you are running on (the LPG kit I had had an output pin on the connector that indicated when it was running LPG - yours may well have the same). This allows you to tune the ignition map for each fuel (LPG likes a very different map to petrol). You LPG controller is probably not actually using the fuelling signals from the ECU, just disconnecting the injectors and adjusting directly from it's own inputs (just lambda?), so you may be able to remove the LPG wiring from the petrol injectors and disable them by switching to an empty fuel map in the megasquirt. The latter is what I should have been running on my Range Rover - but I should caveat this by saying that I didn't get the table switching working. I wired it incorrectly and I think fried the input on the megasquirt so it wouldn't switch, and at the time I sold the car hadn't sorted this out. However, I had tested it by switching tables from a laptop while someone else drove the car, and it's well worth it for the separate ignition maps. As I couldn't switch automatically I still had the LPG kit disabling the injectors. The two biggest benefits I saw with the system (even in the compromised form I was running it) were: Easy diagnosis - I fitted the megasquirt because I had problems with the hotwire system that I couldn't get to the bottom of (lambda sensor issues that I couldn't trace). As soon as I got the megasquirt up and running I could see on the live sensor output on the laptop that one of the lambda sensors was dropping in and out - turned out I had an internally broken wire that only lost connectivity with the vibration of a the engine running. Easy fix once I'd found it! Decent ignition - can't understate this one. In terms of every day use, the EDIS ignition was far and away the biggest improvement. Always a nice fat spark no matter what conditions. Even in limp home mode without a signal from the megasquirt (the EDIS will switch to fixed 10o advance in this case) the engine ran far better than it ever had on the distributor. I know the standard ignition system is notoriously feeble, but it was still a surprise just how much it strangled the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 If it helps I believe I have Geoff's MS-in-a-14CUX in my shed gathering dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I'm guessing the rest of that car is gone then? Unless someone has already sorted it it would need the table switching input sorted out, but should otherwise be perfect for DHSE1's purposes. Plus as Fridge says it's mounted in a 14CUX ECU case using the standard connector, so makes for a tidy implementation (from memory you need to cut a notch out of the back of the bracket that holds the ECU under the seat, to make room for the additional connector for the EDIS). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Geoff - some of it's still around, racing in Russia, based in Finland last I heard. Sure I could sort the table switching out if it was needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHSE1 Posted January 6, 2017 Author Share Posted January 6, 2017 Interesting, I didn't know there was a difference between batch and sequential until now, and you're right in saying I would prefer reliability over something that might not be so robust for everyday use. I have been chatting with Nige and he has mentioned this point about the extra work needed on a new ecu to run a dual fuel set-up, and on that point would it not be best to buy the complete kit that would have the table switching already fitted? Thank you for letting me know about the MS in a 14CUX box, FridgeFreezer, maybe that's something to consider. I have not had any experience with installing a system like this before, but I really like the idea of gutting all the 14CUX / Lucas stuff for a modern, reliable set-up. When it's all said and done, and MS is fully installed, can it be made to look discreet inside the cabin? I'm assuming yes, but it's better to ask. Another question worth asking, would megajolt be better suited to my needs or is that something I should forget about? As I said, I'm completely new to this, I've read many posts and have read over the megasquirt v8 website many times, but there's a lot of information to take in, and I have no practical applications near me in Dublin (that I know of), to see it working in real life. I do like the idea of being able to quickly pinpoint issues on the laptop though. I have rovergauge set-up at the moment, but I'm not entirely satisfied that it is the best at highlighting faults. Will all the other bits work on the range rover once MS is installed? cruise control, seats, mirrors, air suspension,etc? I know it's the P38 that has the becm but again, it's better to ask Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 The ECU Mr Fridge has woulkd be fine, he could Mod it for you - you could buy it off Geoff, save a lot I'm guessing I can do the Kit Minus ECU ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Sequential is largely unnecessary, certainly not worth worrying about. Fuel/air mix will sit behind the closed valve mixing and swirling happily before being ingested. It's done for emissions and makes a small improvement around idle. At higher speeds/loads most systems switch to batch-fire anyway and the injectors are open for longer than the valves anyway. Generous though Nige's suggestion is, you don't need to buy Geoff's ECU from Geoff as it's mine now! If it's of interest I can dig it out and test it but if you want to rip your whole loom out there'd be no point using a 14CUX-shaped box when a regular MS would do. Megajolt is ignition-only, MS can do fuel, ingition, or both so I'd say that's really the one you want. As for discretion, yes you can tuck an MS ECU away easily enough it's only about 6" long by 3" wide by 2" tall, similar to the 14CUX. I hid my last one, with the EDIS module, behind the Defender dash. A RR has loads of space you could hide it in. I believe none of the systems on a RRC/14CUX would worry which ECU is fitted, there is an air-con connection which simply tells the 14CUX to raise the idle slightly when air-con is switched on, not critical. One thing to note is that MS does not have fault diagnostics, it just shows you everything that's going on so you can make your own mind up. A minor point, but thought I'd mention it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 As fridge says, that ECU hasn't been mine for years! My range rover had all the toys including air suspension. They all worked just as well with megasquirt as with hotwire. The systems on a classic have very little integration - at most they switch a simple "I'm on" signal line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I might have a spare ms casing unit i think somewhere ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 No point unless Alan wants to put it somewhere the 14CUX case won't fit and the megasquirt one will. Besides, it would break Jonathan's heart Someone (think it might have been you Fridge?) said a megasquirt wouldn't fit in a 14CUX case, and he couldn't resist the challenge... Plus if you do want to keep the existing loom, it makes installation really easy, as the ECU end uses the standard connector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHSE1 Posted January 12, 2017 Author Share Posted January 12, 2017 I'm all for completely ripping out the old (perhaps perished) loom and replacing it for a new one, bespoke as advertised on the MS site. I don't mind putting the unit behind the dash or whatnot, once it's all tidy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carloz Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 A MS2 can do all what you want. :-) I have a MS2 V3.0 laying on the shelf which is able to provide semi sequential fueling and ignition on a V8 (full sequential on a 4 cylinder) with peak & hold boards to control directly high (petrol) and low (LPG) impedance injectors. With table switching the petrol and LPG maps for fuel and spark can be selected. With the same switch a relais can be controlled to switch +12V to the petrol and lpg injectors (negative will be switched by the peak&hold boards). But well... my RRC is still in 1000pieces.. so that has to be sorted first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHSE1 Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) I just noticed that there's a small jump in the price of the complete kit online since the start of the month. Are there extra bits included in the kit now? Does it cost extra to have the table switching bit installed for the gas? Edited January 16, 2017 by DHSE1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 The small jump is unfortunately the increase costs of me having to import from USA the ECUs, exchange rate ! - I have not increased prices for about 5 years but have had to - approx £20 a Full kit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHSE1 Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 That's fair enough, and to be honest I was thinking as much so no complaints from me Will it cost more for the table switching set-up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHSE1 Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 Does the Thor inlet manifold bolt straight up to the 3.9 engine? Are upper and lower parts of the Thor manifold used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Yes and yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandog Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Do any of you use lube injection at all with the lpg? My Renault has a landi renso set up, very reliable but I think the valve seats will be shot by now. 48ppl at flogas Nottingham. So very cheap running. (domestic is around 30 p) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintman Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Don't know about the ms side of things but my RRC - 3.5EFi - has been on gas for approx 16 years. Originally on a gas ring in front of the afm (flapper) but I fitted a Blos some years ago & wish I'd done it sooner. Changeover is by manual switch - I decide when it switches - & no issues starting from cold on either petrol or gas. Plus side of that is that in the event of a running problem I can switch from one to the other. If it plays up on petrol but is fine on LPG (or vice versa) then it's a fuelling issue & if it plays up on both it's ignition. I don't have a lube system, but do run on petrol from time to time to stop what's in the tank going stale & have MoT'd it on both without problem. No idea whether it's had any effect on the valve seats but I haven't noticed any odd issues. Edited February 10, 2017 by paintman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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