o_teunico Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) Hi all, I have been given a pipe bender for my birthday, so I will try to build an internal roll cage for my 88. Yes, we all know that a tube bender will be the proper tool for this work, but I have seen people using pipe benders with quite good results. I will use saddle joints, but, how? Just weld the piece to the end of the bar or weld a piece of solid bar to the "hole"? Weld a cap maybe? I made many years ago a roll bar for an 88, but never a full cage. It will be fully bolted, as roll cages are not legal for street cars. It will be bolted for pay&play weekends and unbolted for daily driving. Any help will be apreciated. Edited February 4, 2017 by o_teunico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandog Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 I wait with bated breath, because I want to build an external cage to my 88. Was thinking of just migging one up, rather than paying silly money. How much was the tube bending tool? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) 99.90 Eur in eBay. EBERTH branded and sold by Rocket Tools Gmbh. Edited February 4, 2017 by o_teunico wrong data Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retropower Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Unfortunately, from experience I can tell you that bender is no use for building a roll cage. It will bend pipe, not tube, and thus has dies sized for imperial pipe not seamless tube. Roll cage tubing (cfs3 or a better equivalent cds) will also kink if bent with those dies and no internal support. I bought a pro tool ratchet bender years ago after messing about with a hydraulic push unit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 I was goimg to use 2" gas pipe, that called blue band. Years ago it was OK for roll cages... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retropower Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Ok, yep it will bend gas pipe. A cage made from that will be better than no cage. I'm just used to working with motorsport regulation where that would not be acceptable as the material must be seamless and steel of minimum 350n/sq mm tensile strength Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandog Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I was wondering about tube width and wall thickness. I expect it has to be some steel alloy that has some spring, rather than just welded mild steel. Not a bad price though for the futurama robot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 For info on design and materials, have a look at http://www.alrc.co.uk/Handbook/2015/regulations/Roll-cage regulations.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Frimodt Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I've built many cages now using a bender like that, all in tube, but cheap tube. The way I see it, is that because a race car has to be as light as possible, yet still has as much protection as possible, you end up having to use a more expensive material. So I just think like the engineers of yesteryear and over-dimension whenever in doubt My preferred tube measures 48mm OD and has a wall thickness of 2,5mm, a bit tough to bend, but you get the hang of it. The beauty of this tube is that the 48mm OD is just a tad too big for the die, so I've ground it down to be a very snug fit, which, even at a 90degree bend, completely removes the kinking. Oh and an added benefit to thicker wall, that most people forget, is that you don't get dings and dents as easily (from trees, rocks etc) And a big ol' dent in a fancy tube is even more dangerous and useless than a piece of pipe that still has its shape (in my humble opinion that is ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I have experience with using such a bender, very easy to use and very easy to get the bend you want in the right place. Also very easy to turn a nice piece of tube into to scrap in 10 seconds flat This is the video I watched and I cannot stress how tight you need to pack that sand as I kinked a tube with sand in as for the saddles. I weld the tube up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 18 years ago I build my first (and yet only) ROPS for a Land Rover. The guy at the steel warehouse recomended "DIN gas pipe", 1,5" internal diameter and 3.2mm wall thickness. It was suposed to be equivalent to that 48mm OD blue band mentioned by ARC regulations. In those days I had no welding experience, neither a bender, so, local blacksmith bent it for me. I then tacked it in the 88 and he fully MIG welded it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 Have found this picture on the net, from challenger4x4. Aparently the saddle is elded to the tubing and that´s all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Those saddles come in pairs and one half goes onto the end of one tube and the other half goes onto the side of the other tube and yes, that is apparently all. I only know because I was looking into doing the same thing years ago. Safety Devices or a similar outfit were selling them. I still have to build a roll bar for my Series Landie and will have to do it in the same way as you, using available tube and that type of hydraulic bender, but not with the saddles, just a fixed frame behind the cab. This is because I live in a remote town and there are simply no other options. So since what you want to do isn't for motorsport it will be fine if the design and welding are sensible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 I have located various suppliers through the net for the saddles, both as single units and as sets. Now I´m looking at the various ways for makin crosses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 I'd go with the middle photo. The top has too much extra welding and the bottom relies only on basically two welds. Of course I realise I'm no expert but the join in the middle picture has been the standard in the Land Rover world for quite a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 Today I have found some time for playing with my new toy and have bent my first pipe. Old fence post, 49mm OD and 2mm wall thickness. When I was pumping it looked like it wasn´t at 90 degree, but in fact it was bent a tad above 90 degree. Lesson 1: don´t trust your eyes when calculating angles. Theres was some tube kinking. As expected, die is 51mm and tube OD 49. Lesson 2: tight die/pipe fit is essential. The rollers also have marked the pipe. Lesson 3: use load spreading plates. The bending radius was 150mm, that is, 3 times the pipe´s OD. Perfect for an internal roll cage following roofs line. Santana used a GRP double skin foam filled roof, and that will require a small extra bent 4" below the main bent, where the roof meets the window panel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 A pair of pictures... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arjan Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 For a non competition cage - that is going to be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Correct me if Santana's are different, but the sides aren't 90 degrees from the roof, are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveturnbull Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: Correct me if Santana's are different, but the sides aren't 90 degrees from the roof, are they? 6 degrees off vertical from my recent measurements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 I suppose it depends on if the vertical legs are going to go down through the "benches" on the sides. For the OP, I cut a short piece of pipe in half lengthwise and put these between the rollers and the pipe to avoid those dents you wound up with. It's a bit picky to set up, but works well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 13 hours ago, Davo said: I cut a short piece of pipe in half lengthwise Yep, that´s how I want to do it, as seen in those youtube videos. Santana used same window panels as any british built Series/Defender. It´s the roof the one that is different. It has about 4" of plain inclined surface before the "arch" starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 More testing. One small bend with 20cm radius and a bigger one of 16.5cm radius, with one roller in the center of the first bend gives me a nearly perfect match with the Santana grp roof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 I don't know if it's of use but at the Donnington Show, Red Winches had the most beautiful tube joints: http://www.red-winches.com/categories/brackets-amp-parts/45/ They are about the most precise and good looking I've seen - and well priced for what they are. Knowing Neil, they will be properly specified for the job too. I would bet he would custom machine ones for whatever ID of tube you are using. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 Mmmmm...I have never liked those type of joints...cannot say why...but yes, they really look very well made items. Some pics of the pipe bending test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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