Mud terrain summer what???

[Bandog]

I don't get it. Why are mud terrain tyres classified as summer?  When winter tyres in general are m+s. No not marks and Spencer, mud AND snow. 

I can't seem to find any reliable information on mud terrain tyres, and the general grabber at2 have so many conflicting descriptions from so many suppliers it's confusing. Some say they have the mountains snowflake symbol, others state it's a summer tyre. 

I can only think that a genuine mud terrain tyre would be good in snow (unpacked) but a.t. Better on packed ice and snow. https://www.tyreleader.co.uk/car-tyres/goodyear/wrangler-mt-r/235-85-r16-114-111q-394916?utm_source=compare&utm_medium=google-shopping&utm_campaign=tyre&gclid=Cj0KEQiA25rFBRC8rfyX1vjeg7YBEiQAFIb3b53oa5raOebnWzWaOlmvlAIKZn-4P4tyayfpMWihyegaAnlj8P8HAQ

What are your thoughts on this very confusing advert? Clearly states summer and mud and snow. They must mean summer snow, Australian. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Bandog

[neil110]

If you have a look here.

https://www.tyreleader.co.uk

enter your tyre size and choose winter tyres you might be surprised by what comes up. Typically winter tyres are heavily siped and have relatively small, sharp edged tread blocks.I have got Goodyear wrangler MTR tyres on mine for most of the year and they are not very good on hard packed snow, or even not so hard packed. they break away quite gently and typically at the front end first. During the snowier times I fit Michelin latitude, still a summer tyre but far better on snow that the Goodyears. probably cos the Michelin factory is only 50 miles up the road

Edited February 17, 2017 by neil110

[BogMonster]

MTs on hard packed snow are liable to lead to an increase in your laundry bill so I suppose they avoid advertising them for mud and snow. ATs are much better as there are more grippy edges on an AT.

[sgnas]

Big block tyres are not great in deep fresh snow either. They just dig big holes. 

[Cynic-al]

My understanding of snow tyre is they are a softer rubber to allow them to flexes and 'grip' the snow at low temperatures where the rubber will be stiffer than at higher temperatures. 

Mud tyres are generally harder to resist cutting and to have the required flex at a higher temperature. 

Which is why you usually get higher milage from mud tyres to snow tyres.

Although I wouldn't like to comment on specific tyres. 

[GBMUD]

A 'winter' tyre is usually softer rubber and has 'siping' - very thin grooves going across, or diagonally, across the tread - which help grip on packed snow and ice. A winter tyre is usually defined as one which will work in winter road conditions, most commonly in Europe being packed snow and/or ice.  A mud tyre will probably work better on virgin snow - but as we know, after the first time it is never virgin again.  Most AT tyres seem to carry the snowflake symbol and/or the 'M+S' logo.

Chris

 

[elbekko]

M+S is a fairly worthless rating, the snowflake inside a mountain logo is the actual winter tyre logo. Some ATs and MTs have it, it all depends on compound and if they've actually been tested for it.

[neil110]

these videos might help explain 

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

On 17/02/2017 at 9:04 PM, BogMonster said:

MTs on hard packed snow are liable to lead to an increase in your laundry bill so I suppose they avoid advertising them for mud and snow. ATs are much better as there are more grippy edges on an AT.

I think it depends on the type of snow, the type of terrain and the actual tyres in question.

Also if you are driving on snow that is on top of mud/grass. Then what happens when you cut through the snow???

 

AT's tend to work well on ice or packed snow. Because most AT's have sipes in them. But in deep snow or off road snow they are usually not the best option.

Also not all MT's are equal and plenty have sipes as well.

 

That all aside, I can attest that these MT's without sipes:

Bronco Dirt Devils

 

Worked brilliantly in the snow. Even the deep stuff. Drove through this no probs and went and rescued a stuck Ford Mondeo.

 

 

On the flip side. These M&S rated AT's with sipes were nothing more than 'ok' in the snow. Better than a summer road biased car tyre. But miles behind the Dirt Devils.

 

A few years back we did some tyre testing in the snow. This is a 90 running BFG AT's off road in the snow. If you kept to the fresh to lightly driven bits and didn't spin the wheels up it went ok. But too much throttle or drive where others had been and they soon ran out of ability.

 

We directly compared to another 90 running some Recip Trial MT's. Same driver in both vids over the same terrain. The MT's just felt so much more stable and easy to drive with a lot more grip.

 

 

After shooting the vids above, the BFG AT's kept getting stopped or stuck. So we went and swapped on some Recip Maxi 3D's (very aggressive MT). They worked brilliantly in the snow. The next day my brother entered an RTV trials competition with the snow still on the ground. These aggressive MT's went places others couldn't (think he won the event iirc).

The other vehicle here is on Toyo MT's. A milder MT and one that has sipes. They worked well too, better than the BFG AT's.

 

 

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

On 17/02/2017 at 8:48 PM, Bandog said:

I don't get it. Why are mud terrain tyres classified as summer?  When winter tyres in general are m+s. No not marks and Spencer, mud AND snow. 

I can't seem to find any reliable information on mud terrain tyres, and the general grabber at2 have so many conflicting descriptions from so many suppliers it's confusing. Some say they have the mountains snowflake symbol, others state it's a summer tyre. 

I can only think that a genuine mud terrain tyre would be good in snow (unpacked) but a.t. Better on packed ice and snow. https://www.tyreleader.co.uk/car-tyres/goodyear/wrangler-mt-r/235-85-r16-114-111q-394916?utm_source=compare&utm_medium=google-shopping&utm_campaign=tyre&gclid=Cj0KEQiA25rFBRC8rfyX1vjeg7YBEiQAFIb3b53oa5raOebnWzWaOlmvlAIKZn-4P4tyayfpMWihyegaAnlj8P8HAQ

What are your thoughts on this very confusing advert? Clearly states summer and mud and snow. They must mean summer snow, Australian. 

Not sure anyone has really address your question. I'll give it a go.

1. I think part of the problem is, data quality on the internet in general and places like tyre sites, is generally pretty low. Which means, plenty of errors, misinformation and contradictions. But this is true even if you look at the tyre makers sites too.

2. Winter tyres is normally a category of tyres. i.e. tyres just for this one specialised use. Most of them are for road cars and are road biased treads. But they use a different rubber compound and have a tread optimised for winter weather. It's not normally recommended to run them all year round. Because on hot dry tarmac they perform much worse and tear up easily.

This means, that if it isn't a winter tyre it's just lumped in with all the others. Often coined as 'summer' or 'all season'. MT's are obviously designed for more than on tarmac driving, but they aren't the 'winter' specialised tyre. So they by default just end up in the other category. The M&S rating is there to help know which of these tyres should then be suitable for those conditions.

 

 

For the record, the Goodyear MTR isn't really a Mud Terrain. The MT in the name stands for Max Traction Radial. They are a good tyre, although make a humming noise on tarmac. But my experience with them is, they don't work very well in British mud. There are other tyres I'd buy ahead of them anyway.

 

And as for snow driving. Anything purpose built for driving on the snow will generally use a wide aggressive treaded tyre. Few opt for AT's. And as a rule there aren't any specialised 'winter' off road tyres, only on road.

 

Some examples:

 

However if it's for road driving, then you need something to cope with wet roads more so and maybe ice. You also tend to get a lot of slush on roads (essentially just water) or packed snow (which behaves like ice). Big lugs will tend to act a little like slicks in all of these conditions. So you need sipes. Which is why AT's can work well for this. Deep fresh snow however, or off roading and snow, AT's will not be the best choice. There are plenty of modern MT's that work well on the road, capable off road and have sipes in, so work in the wet, snow and ice too.

Maxxis MT764/762.

Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac.

Cooper STT Pro

And others.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Chicken Drumstick

[Bandog]

An intelligent forum post, we should get it framed! I rush to add that, this is the best forum I have ever been on for lack of pedants and very silly comments. 

Thanks for such an in depth and articulate reply. 

When I lived in Dimaro, Northern Italy, I had a smiley face rear wheel drive transit van. I always bought the cheapest chech Republic tries money could buy, which just happened to be stamped M+S. I used to regularly make the 25km pass up to Passo del Tonale, to the military Base at the summit, full of dogs, before 6 am before the Plough got out. I used to have snow chains as well just in case but never ever got stranded due to lack of traction. It's also plugged me straight out of thick mud with it loaded up with logs, but I did have to deflate the tyres on that occasion. 

My current Renault runs pirellli sottozero 3 winter tyres, and they are like glue below 7degrees. Totally amazing tyres. I have a set of summer tyres on some other rims to go on some time real soon I think. 

Just seems to me that the information about tyres is not so black and white with the 4x4 market. If the tyres I buy are remotely as good as those cheap eastern block stuff I will be more than happy. I am considering some general grabber at2 with the snowflake emblem. Though I think would not be as good as the wranglers in the mud. Still not committed. The red letter series seems to be very popular in the states. 

No confusion with my car tyres. Exactly what it says on the tin! Ever so much better on mud too, can you tell I live in the country 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Bandog

[Troll Hunter]

Your confusion regarding General Grabber AT2 isn't surprising.  It seems that they really set out to confuse their potential customers because some tyre sizes have the M&S and Mountains and Snowflake symbol, and some don't.  So, some should be true winter tyres, and those without the symbol are, presumably, only summer tyres.

In my area, by law, you have to use M&S tyres on cars and pick-ups in winter, and a national tyre specialist advertises that the softer winter tyre compound provides improved traction below 7 deg. C.

Mike

[Bandog]

So two sets of tyres for my fast estate car, and potentially 3 sets for the 4x4?

What a total paradox!  This is why I am doing research, because I really only want to buy one set of 5

[Chicken Drumstick]

Assuming that's Norfolk in the UK, then 1 set should suffice. Unless you need a dedicated off road set. But if it's a mostly road vehicle with occasional trips off the tarmac, then one set will be fine. We really don't get much snow in England and even when we do it only lasts for hours to maybe a day.

I didn't see a single snow flake last year and yes we had a very small dusting of snow a couple of weeks back. It was only really settling on the grass, not the road. And you'd have been fine in a Ferrari on summer tyres.

[Cynic-al]

When I first got my Isuzu we had a bit of snow so I volunteered to drive health care workers around, it's was on the factory standard school terrains and it got around just fine it be honest. I had to go down country paved lanes knee deep in snow and up and down hills that regular cars were getting stuck on. Infact the only thing that held me up was all the other cars that were stuck and blocking the road. If I were buying tyres for this country I would be looking more to balance their mud and tarmac performance than snow I think. If your planning a trip to far away lands I would consider a second set of tyres then.

The bumper digging in was the biggest problem for this vehicle compared to say a defender.

[Bandog]

7 hours ago, Troll Hunter said:

Your confusion regarding General Grabber AT2 isn't surprising.  It seems that they really set out to confuse their potential customers because some tyre sizes have the M&S and Mountains and Snowflake symbol, and some don't.  So, some should be true winter tyres, and those without the symbol are, presumably, only summer tyres.

In my area, by law, you have to use M&S tyres on cars and pick-ups in winter, and a national tyre specialist advertises that the softer winter tyre compound provides improved traction below 7 deg. C.

Mike

Love B.C.!!! I remember hearing the studs in tyres on burrard bridge etc when I am in Vancouver. I'm proud to say I have spent many months over there, I learned to snowboard on grouse mountain. 

Just look out for those dag nam samsqampch's, dirty bs them. 

Gimme Tim hortons honey cruller Tim bits now and a large double double! 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Bandog

[Troll Hunter]

This year they had real fun on the coast, with maximums of 20cm of snow on the ground at YVR airport and Abbotsford had 45cm.  And this is in an area that rarely gets any snow and where winter tyres are not compulsory!

Mike