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bodumatau

Alternative engine to TD5

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greetings Land Rover people

 

I have a fleet of Td5 safari vehicles in Botswana and the TD5's lives are coming to an end, some are dying around 2-300k km and others only at 400, 450+, but they are dying, and I am looking for an alternative, 300Tdi doesn't have enough power, our vehicles are 150" wheelbase 12 seaters that pull big trailers though thick botswana sand so we need an engine with lots of guts.

 

Personally I love V8's but carrying around 250 litres of highly flammable fuel in a vehicle with 12 people in doesn't tickle my fancy.

 

I was wondering if anyone has an experience with these engines:

https://cumminsengines.com/repower

and whether it would work as a replacement engine for a TD5.

 

thanks

Heiko

 

 

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You get Cummins a lot in the smaller range of marine diesel generators, they have a good reputation for being pretty robust and easily serviceable, with parts generally available in most places, looks quite a tidy set-up. How big's your fleet? - I guess making a small batch of adaptor plates and conversion kits looks more cost effective than doing a single unit.

The Australians used a 3.9ltr Isuzu unit in there army trucks and 6x6 trucks, could maybe be an option for you.

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As per the V8 repower thread, go with what you know you can get locally. If all the locals drive Isuzu trucks, that's a strong contender for an engine donor as you know parts & support are there. No point having the only 5 Cummins engines in the country and having to specially import every nut, bolt, filter etc. from half way round the world.

With the mileage you do, lifetime maintenance cost will outweigh even fairly large differences in conversion costs.

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hi Maverik and Fridge Freezer

I am running about 15 TD5's, 13of which are 150's then some long double cabs. we do relatively low milage, only about 30-40k km per year, but 75% of this is on thick sandy bush tracks. (you might laugh at my "about 15", but they live and die so erratically that I can't be precise)

locally available in Botswana!!, you crack me up FF, ever considered a career in comedy?? 

we hold more stock for Land Rovers than Land Rover Botswana does (about 10 times more)...... Maun is 900km from Gaborone, 1200km from South Africa, and nothing is locally available or reliable or "quickly" order on any bay of any sort or any jungle named website, we do everything by order, some things take 2 weeks to bring from South Africa and some things take 4-6 weeks to bring from the UK......

my biggest challenge right now is that my workshop team doesn't have the skills to make a TD5 work again once they have taken it apart, in fact I wouldn't trust them with much anything, so I need functioning units to replace with, we order our gearboxes and transfer cases from ashcroft and this seems to work well (if I keep reminding my team to put the clutch plate in the right way round), and I am not around to guide them in the workshop....

not really keen on scratching for "donor" vehicles, then having to deal with slight differences in year model, basically having to rework it for each vehicle and having each one being its own princess, this is why I look for one common engine product, this way I know all can be made the same, one conversion mission for me that I can plan for, commit myself to a few weeks workshop time and convert a batch of 6 vehicles (or whatever works) in one go.

to make all of this worse I recently put 6 brand new toyota land cruisers into my fleet and was reminded why I hate them so much.....never driven such a flat, powerless engine as the 4,2 diesel 1HZ

 

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So would it be an option to purchase core td5 units from turners and build up with the relevant bits from your current engines? Your current units could then be dismantled/stored for spare parts? 

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Have to say, I would be looking for a more simple engine than a latest generation cummins. I doubt that it is a bad engine, but if you are struggling to repair TD5s, the Cummins will be no better.

What state of tune are your TD5s in? Stock? If so a 300TDI can be turned up with fuelling to match this, without hurting reliability too much. However, they are getting old now, newest of which is 2006.... but rare at that age.

International HS 2.8L is a 300TDI tweaked up a bit, and would match or exceed your TD5s, however they have stopped making them now... BUT! These people are making 300TDI engines into them, by boring them out to 2.8l and fitting all the International stuff to them: http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/

Seems like a lot of money, but it is essentially a new engine. Big benefit of this is that the engine will bolt up to your already-sorted drivetrain solution, with a couple of tweaks (input shaft, bellhousing). Simple bolt on stuff, you can't say that about many other conversions.

 

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This is the turners page for stripped engines

http://turner-engineering.co.uk/html/strippedengines.html

shouldnt be too hard to build up with ancilliaries from your current engines? I dont know what prices you're thinking of as acceptable though?

 

The MD 2.8 have always interested me, but MD Engineering were so disinterested when an expensive radiator they supplied me with failed that i wouldnt bother with them on something as big as an engine! The rad was out of warranty (just), but it was clearly a manufacturing fault (got it fixed elsewhere for £30, so it wouldn't have been hard for them to rectify, but they couldnt care less). 

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Never used them, but suspect a rad out of warranty was not a huge concern to them when they ship engines out the door, or do chassis swaps/engine conversions.

Shame of course, be good if they learn from it :)

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7 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Never used them, but suspect a rad out of warranty was not a huge concern to them when they ship engines out the door, or do chassis swaps/engine conversions.

Shame of course, be good if they learn from it :)

It was such a tiny thing (solder failed along a seam) if they had been at all bothered about it, they'd still have me as a potential customer interested in buying an engine from them in the future. They've lost this one though. 

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300TDi's are older than the TD5's, makes no sense to me no matter how much people like them.

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Well indeed, updated to international spec they are more modern. Was coming from a perspective of numpty mechanics not being able to fix even TD5s...

It'll be the same problem with any common rail diesel to be honest, hence the TGV option.

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I have looked at the turner engine option, sure they build excellent quality engines but again my obstacle would be my numpty (perfect description Bowie) mechanics then messing it all up by not getting turbos on right, stripping manifold bolts (this they can do really really well, AND then drill them out about 20 degrees off bolt center so that they drill into the cavity next to the stud thread!!)

the TD5's were awesome for their first 250k km until the numpties got their dirty fingers into the engine... cummins can give me similar and then pluck them out and put fresh in after 200-250 (7-10 years) then it could work for me.

 

 

 

 

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Is it not a better idea to improve the quality of your mechanics, rather than solve the problem by giving them 'less breakable' engines to work on?

A numpty mechanic will mess up a Cummins just as easily as they will a Td5.

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retro I'll send them to you for 4 weeks, let me know how your sanity is after that

we start off with very very poor education with these guys, they don't know basic life skills, only ever used an axe effectively, which they default to when in doubt.

even those with certificates don't know the difference between a 6 and 8mm bolt, they are 10mm bolts and 13mm bolts respectively, we try very hard to train them, repeatedly, but haven't achieved results yet (and when they do get to a level that they can do something they have been with use for 5+ years, get the wanderlust and go to the next higher bidder.....been there done that several times)

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I wonder how you plan to carry out a fairly complex engine conversion when you say you are currently unable to perform routine maintenance on the engines you've got. I'd have thought any engine conversion is going to be equally as or more complex than fixing up a Td5. And in most cases will likely require some on site R&D to make things fit. But I guess that isn't the question you were asking.

 

As for engines.

-I'm sure you should be able to buy new or fully reconditioned Td5's. As an entire engine they will be as cheap as any other and truly will be direct replacements. Surely you won't get easier than this.

 

-Thinking of ease of conversion. The Ford Puma engine 2.2 used in the last Defenders should fit. They still use an LT230, but you'll need a different gearbox most likely. But still likely to need a fair bit of customising. Not sure but you might need different engine mounts.

 

The Cummins unit looks nice. Have seen some reviews of them in converted Jeeps. But they aren't cheap as a kit. And sticking one in a Land Rover would likely be a bit of mission on first try. As there will be lots of bits that need customising. ECU/mounts/gearbox or adapter plates/exhaust/induction/wiring, etc etc etc.

Other engines of similar ilk. The Iveco 2.8 as used by Santana. So there must be parts to bolt it into a Land Rover chassis and to an R380 gearbox.

The 2.8 VM unit used in Euro spec Jeep Wranglers (JKs). The 2.4 and 2.5 VM was fitted to the classic Range Rover. So there might be some bits that might bolt up and make it easier. But still a lot of work I daresay.

 

Any other longitudinal 4 to 6 cylinder inline engine. Maybe the BMW diesel as per the p38's or the latter 3.0 unit.

 

One other question. Do you use the Traction Control on the Td5's you have now? If so, I'm not sure how easy it will be to retain it with an engine swap, or if the BCU won't care or can be easily fooled.

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hey chicken

yes I would have to do the conversion myself, problem is that I am not on site the whole year round and that is when my numpty's get numpting.

agreed the TD5 direct replacement would be the easier and better option, I just need to convince my business partners who by now have an ever deepening hate for them :D.

Traction control doesn't work in our environment as it is a power robbing process so only works if you have LOTS of extra power, we don't have traction control, no ABS, only good old fashioned diff lock.

we also strip out the heater, frees up quite a bit of space for extra bits.

 

 

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Assuming that electronics will only add to your problems, ruling out the BMW M57, what about Mercedes OM606, or better for your purposes something from Isuzu with no electronics at all ?

They are huge in Asia, and easily available there, but I have no idea about Africa 

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TBH a numpty mechanic will mess up anything from a lawnmower engine upwards, so pick whatever you like!

I'd suggest that more powerful/torquey lumps want to have more cylinders or you'll kick the ar5e out of the gearbox & drivetrain in short order. Even the 2.8TGV's (which are not a huge boost) are cruel to LR geabroxes, a 5.9 Cummins has the potential to kill everything downstream of it without even trying. Auto gearboxes help smooth things out but are less numpty-compatible...

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OK, how about getting a properly trained/skilled mechanic from over here? He could maintain your current fleet, and help engineer the replacements?

With the time and money saved on the numpty mechanics, you could be in-pocket...

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So you have numpty spanner wielders. What about the drivers?

Like Fridge says, too much power could be a bad thing in the wrong hands. It sounds like your trucks are pretty heavy old buses, but an engine with 'just enough' power  (300 Tdi) may be the ticket. Transmissions may last longer too...

Yes I  know they're an old design, but they're simple and I believe pretty reliable. If you bought manufactured engines from Turners you are as good as getting new engines, that hopefully will provide several year's life. Conversion costs will be minimal too.

Failing that, as others have said, use what is locally popular in other vehicles.

I'm a through and through Landrover fan - I've never driven a Toyota LC, but I can't say I've ever heard anyone else say the six pot 4.2 was gutless!

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If you want gutless, try a Nissan Y60 TD42.... was like driving a milk float.

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4 hours ago, mickeyw said:

I'm a through and through Landrover fan - I've never driven a Toyota LC, but I can't say I've ever heard anyone else say the six pot 4.2 was gutless!

it just so happens that my turbo pipe came off on my TD5 and I was too lazy to put it on for the drive back home so I drove it without the turbo connected for about 40 min, then a week or so later I took the 4,2 on safari, well it performed exactly the same as the TD5 without a turbo..... and thats a little 2,5 engine

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From reading this thread l would go with reconditioned TD5's as already suggested.

As you were happy with this engine, it has lasted 300,000+ km in your environment, and it will be much easier to fit (than fitting a different unit)

As already said, poor mechanics could soon ruin any engine and it sounds like you can't do much about this, except do the work yourself when you are there. Perhaps bring someone out with you to helpservice the fleet leaving your "bush mechanics" with as little as possible to do.

But despite this your TD5's have lasted very well....another reason to fit like for like.

With regard to the Land Cruiser, the 4.2 develops around 200bhp, and 430Nm torque at 1800rpm so should not feel "gutless, like a TD5 with no turbo" Could it be poor quality fuel? Maybe the ECU is reigning it in due to that.

Edited by Lightning

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4 hours ago, Lightning said:

With regard to the Land Cruiser, the 4.2 develops around 200bhp, and 430Nm torque at 1800rpm so should not feel "gutless, like a TD5 with no turbo" Could it be poor quality fuel? Maybe the ECU is reigning it in due to that.

thats only with the turbo version, we have no turbo 4,2's in Southern Africa on pickup Land Cruisers, and with our high density altitude the NA 4,2 struggles for air.....a lame lump

IIRC the 4,2 without turbo develops about 95KW and 290NM torque in the book (at sea level). Where I operate in Botswana we are at 3000ft Above sea level and with temps in the high 30's (Celcius) we are seeing Density altitudes of 5000-7000ft, a NA engine looses about 3% power per 1000 foot so we are loosing between 15 and 21% power on the poor 95KW (128HP)...... and have 102hp pushing along a BIG vehicle....

Edited by bodumatau

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