19J rebuild project

[deep]

On 3/11/2017 at 8:00 PM, monkie said:

That's interesting, I did a quick search for 18J and there isn't much information out there on them. On wikipedia, the 11J, 12J, 13J, 14J and 15J are mentioned, The most sensible suggestion I could find is that it is a modified version for the military ready for 24volt systems fitted and the belt driven vacuum pump you mention. I wonder if anyone on the military forum has information on it?

From what I've been able to work out, it's closer to a 12J than 19J.  Different pulleys (wider belts) and a totally different ancillary layout to accommodate that massive generator.  It doesn't have the 19J's breather system but really needs it!  I've only found a small range of engine numbers, suggesting they didn't make that many.  I've actually mucked around with mine a bit, fitting a 100amp alternator out of a Discovery V8, which allowed me to fit the 19J vacuum pump.

While I know turbos have significant advantages on a diesel, this motor suits me so well that I have no inclination to change it.  It came un-run after a military rebuild but who really knows what lurks inside!  Anyway, I think a sympathetically used 19J would probably be a stellar engine.  I hope yours lasts as long as it should.

[monkie]

On 13/03/2017 at 7:20 AM, Snagger said:

 Perhaps the easiest thing would be to dial back the maximum boost from the turbo?  Not an ideal solution to lose performance like that, but losing a few psi might be all it needs.

I think that is a really good idea. I don't mind loosing a little boost to help to preserve the engine for longer. I think the standard pressure for a 19J is a little over 9 PSI, I wonder what detuning it down to 5 or 6 PSI would do?

Is it a case of getting a gauge, T piece and some tubing then driving up a hill? Which way do I screw the acctuator to reduce boost? Would this sort of gauge do:

https://www.slime.com/us/products/lawn-garden/gauges/dial/1-20-psi-low-pressure-gauge.php

[Snagger]

21 hours ago, monkie said:

I think that is a really good idea. I don't mind loosing a little boost to help to preserve the engine for longer. I think the standard pressure for a 19J is a little over 9 PSI, I wonder what detuning it down to 5 or 6 PSI would do?

It'd just be a matter of adjusting the link on the waste gate actuator, but yes, you'd need a tee and a line to a boost gauge to see how much you're removing.

This method of charge pressure/temperature reduction has the advantage of not affecting off-boost torque, which reducing CR and maintaining boost would do.

[Ephry73]

On 3/8/2017 at 1:51 PM, monkie said:

Checking for wear. Here are the readings I took, the tollerance from the manual are in brackets:

Camshaft endfloat (0.1-0.2mm), actual = 0.55
Crankshaft endfloat (0.05-0.15mm) actual = 0.25
Main bearing journal (63.487-63.500mm), actual from 1 to 5, 63.52, 63.48, 63.47, 63.48, 63.49
Crank pin journal (58.725-58.744mm), actual from 1 to 4, 58.70, 58.69, 58.69, 58.70
Con rod end float (0.15-0.356mm), actual from 1 to 4, 0.279, 0.152, 0.152, 0.229

The only good readings there are the con rod end float, everything else is out. The crank will be fixed by the regrind and new oversize shells fitted and an oversize thrust washer fitted, the camshaft was fixed by a new thrust washer.

I used a bore gauge with a dial indicator to measure the bores for wear and shape. To measure the bores for wear, several reading are taken and compared to check for overal wear, out of round (caused by the sideways thrust of the piston and taper (more wear in the middle than the top and bottom causing a barrel shaped bore). Any wear here is sorted out by a rebore and oversize pistons and rings fitted:

The standard size bore should be 90.47mm. 0.127mm ovality is allowed, 0.254mm taper is allowed. My bores were good and just needed a light deglaze.The highest wear figure was 0.07mm for ovality with 0.07mm taper and 90.55mm maximum bore size. I was happy with this and proceeded to lightly hone to deglaze the bores and get a nice cross hatch pattern for the new rings to bed in.

The gasket surfaces were also cleaned up by using a square piece of wood and then 400 grit abrasive paper to remove any traces of gasket and muck. I then painted the block using red oxide while I waited to the new parts to arrive and the crank to come back from the engineering shop.

The parts arrived and the crank came back from the engineering shop. £160 to take all journals back to 10 thou undersize. The results were great because the scorring looked awful. Here is a pic of a worn bearing in one of the big ends:

Here's the new piston and ring assembly about to be assembled to the con rod

plenty of oil on the gudgeon pin

Cir clip back in place with the new assembly on a con rod

Here's all 4 piston/con rod assemblies done with the crank back from the workshop

 

Oil jet to cool the pistons fitted with new bolt and washers

Oil jets put back in place with a new oversize main bearing shell in place also ready for the crank to go back in

The bearings were well oiled and the crank placed back in the block

The camshaft was also well oiled and put back in followed by the timing case. You can see what a difference the fresh paint makes:

Before I went any further, I turned my attention to the injection pump. Remember the owner said that speed dropped off as he went up hills? This could be down to a few things, the first being that a 19J in good condition working well isn't that powerful at just 85 bhp and 203 Nm torque, but it could be a dodgy boost diaphragm in the injection pump. A pipe connects the high pressure side of the turbo to the fuel injection pump. As boost pressure builds, it acts on a diaphragm which pushes a pin in the injection pump increasing the fueling in proportion to the extra air available from the turbo. If this diaphragm is split, also sorts of nonsense can happen including poor performance up hills, pressurisation of the fuel tank, air in fuel causing poor starting and even a surge in engine speed as diesel flows from the pump to the turbo. For the sake of £20 you can fix all this stuff easily on a poorly 19J:

The boost diaphragm isn't a difficult job to do, while the pump is off, it is even easier and clearer to show you.

You don't want muck in the pump, so clean off the pump using a cleaning spray such as brake cleaner - don't allow anything such as dirt or brake cleaner to enter the pump

Now it is clean, you can cut the securing wire and undo the two bolts holding on the diaphragm cover.

With the cover off, recover the spring and take out the diaphragm.

The diaphragm can be torn, split or just worn away. Replace it using this part:
http://www.delphipartsstore.co.uk/fuel- ... ragm_3.htm

Putting all the other parts back to build up the engine is litterally as easy as reversal of removal, just taking care with the new parts and using the correct torque figures from the manual rather than just guessing.

I will show the timing belt part though for clarity if anyone is doing this job with the engine on a stand like me or in the vehicle. I used the locking pins that came with that timing set and pullers I got off ebay for £20. I have to say the job is a lot easier with the head off and the engine on a stand rather than in the Land Rover.

The fuel injection pump was put back on first paying attention to the marks made relative to the case and pump body. The sprokets were put back on the crank, cam and injection pump, then a new belt tensioner was fitted.

Number 1 piston was put to TDC

The pump was locked at the correct position using the timing tool

Timing marks on the sprokets lined up and the belt put on and tensioned

I then put the cover back on along with the new water pump - its really starting to take shape now:

When the engine was off the stand and the flywheel put back on, I put the timing tool into the timing hole on the flywheel housing to show you what it looks like when you lock the crank at TDC using this tool

When the job was complete the 300Tdi had to come out and I have to admit that I did have a moment of "what are you thinking Phil!" But there was no turning back now after all that work and I needed to sell the Tdi to pay for the cost of the rebuild! http://forum.lro.com/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif

Tdi out, a few alterations made interms of radiator mounts and putting the 19J engine mount used on the Tdi back onto the 19J, then I was ready to put it in

Right, so that was complete in July 2016. If fired up and ran really well which was very satisfying and a releif. I took it easy for the first 500 miles then changed the oil. So far I have done about 2,000 miles since then with no trouble at all. No oil in the air filter, no heavy breathing and it starts really well even on frosty mornings with about 10 seconds of glow plug heat.

There is of course a noticable drop in power compared to the Tdi and also a rise in fuel consumption. But I am now a step forward to getting back to the 1980s with my 1988 110 and I am really pleased with the result and hopefully the engine will be good for two more decades if not longer with good regular servicing and sympathetic driving.

The original head was scrapped, I got a replacment off ebay for £30. Had it skimmed, ground the valves in and fitted it. All other parts were replaced such as fuel lift pump, water pump, timing belts, ancillary belts, gasket sets, filters etc. Keeping in mind the engine cost £200, I think I spent about £400 on parts including the engineering work and new piston sets, but got £400 for the Tdi when I sold it, so I have a rebuilt 19J for £200 out of pocket and really enjoyed doing the rebuild learning as I went.

I hope these pictures show that it isn't a too hard job to do at home provided you have the correct tools and take your time. I'm happy to try and answer any questions except for "why did you sell the Tdi for a 19J" - can't really answer that one other than I like the old 19J and if I was sensible and concerned about power and economy I would sell the 110 and get a transit van: That ain't happening http://forum.lro.com/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

 

 

Old post I know. Love the rebuild. I have been wondering if the static compression could be raised slightly on these 19j motors and an intercooler added(even if small) to be able to get a bit better torque. 

[monkie]

33 minutes ago, Ephry73 said:

Old post I know. Love the rebuild. I have been wondering if the static compression could be raised slightly on these 19j motors and an intercooler added(even if small) to be able to get a bit better torque. 

I don't know about raising compression, but I think intercooling would definitely be a good idea. 

What I can tell you with this very engine is that I did some good motorway runs in it, prolonged periods at 60-70 mph and the first time I did this it destroyed the piston crowns. 

I refitted new pistons and then later fitted some gauges to monitor the engine more closely. EGT was most interesting. I found that it didn't take much to raise the EGT to unsafe levels. 

I would recommend leaving compression and boost alone, fit an intercooler and EGT gauge and keep the speeds down up hills or long trips and it will be fine. 

I managed to get hold of a Defender spec 200tdi with stumpy gearbox. I fitted that recently and the EGT stays within much safer limits on the tdi even when driving it hard. 

I do have a soft spot for the 19J but it is a fragile thing. 

[Ephry73]

32 minutes ago, monkie said:

I don't know about raising compression, but I think intercooling would definitely be a good idea. 

What I can tell you with this very engine is that I did some good motorway runs in it, prolonged periods at 60-70 mph and the first time I did this it destroyed the piston crowns. 

I refitted new pistons and then later fitted some gauges to monitor the engine more closely. EGT was most interesting. I found that it didn't take much to raise the EGT to unsafe levels. 

I would recommend leaving compression and boost alone, fit an intercooler and EGT gauge and keep the speeds down up hills or long trips and it will be fine. 

I managed to get hold of a Defender spec 200tdi with stumpy gearbox. I fitted that recently and the EGT stays within much safer limits on the tdi even when driving it hard. 

I do have a soft spot for the 19J but it is a fragile thing. 

Good to know. Guess the ticket then will be a 200tdi with a 300tdi head on it. 😈

[Snagger]

You can’t increase the compression without having special hot spots made with smaller voids or pistons with smaller “V” spray guides, both mods likely causing combustion issues.  Raising the compression above the 23:1 the unit already has would be asking for a failure - they’re already over stressed with the turbo on it (the normally aspirated versions have the same compression ratio but don’t crack heads or pistons as regularly).

As Monkie said, if you want better performance, then you need to look at an intercooler - that should increase density without raising pressure on the compression stroke, but the energy on the combustion stroke should be higher because of the increased oxygen.  I’m not sure if that is going to worsen engine longevity.

 

[monkie]

To illustrate what Snagger is saying, these are britpart pistons that I used in the rebuild (had difficulty sourcing a different brand at the time) following a drive from Somerset to Leicestershire (180ish miles 60 to 70mph all the way) with some weight in the back. My guess is the EGT was too high for a prolonged period hence why I now have gauges to take the guesswork away. 

The timing was spot on and the injectors were refurbed. This damage was done through working the engine too hard with cheap pistons. On the plus side, they weren't cracked, or if they had cracked the high temperature welded them back up again! 

[Bowie69]

On compression, the 200tdi is down at 19:1, you have to assume that it is because it is designed to be turbocharged, unlike the 19J.

[monkie]

12 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

On compression, the 200tdi is down at 19:1, you have to assume that it is because it is designed to be turbocharged, unlike the 19J.

And intercooled which as Snagger says will increase the density of air entering the cylinders. 

[Snagger]

I think it’s also because the far higher fuel injection pressure and subsequently better atomisation don’t require such high compression, so the engine can be less stressed and use less energy in compressing the charge.

[deep]

This makes me wonder how a 19J would go with a head spacer to lower compression to, say, 21:1?  I have one on my shed floor I could experiment with, if it ever rises up the priority ladder from somewhere near the bottom rung...

Edited December 21, 2021 by deep
too gloomy

[Snagger]

If they make laminates steel head gaskets for them like they do the Tdi, then getting one and replacing the middle layer with a thicker sheet would probably be the way to do it.  But there doesn’t seem much point - the pistons and head are still weak compared to a Tdi and it is way down on performance and frugality.  Its only technical advantage is in being a little less noisy.

[deep]

22 hours ago, Snagger said:

If they make laminates steel head gaskets for them like they do the Tdi, then getting one and replacing the middle layer with a thicker sheet would probably be the way to do it.  But there doesn’t seem much point - the pistons and head are still weak compared to a Tdi and it is way down on performance and frugality.  Its only technical advantage is in being a little less noisy.

While I agree in theory, the point would be that the 19J is already in the shed and Tdi's are flippin' expensive!  Though the 110 I sold earlier this year had a naturally aspirated 18J motor and it was so nice to drive I wouldn't bother with either, given the choice.  

[Snagger]

12Js are great if you’re not in a hurry.

[deep]

23 hours ago, Snagger said:

12Js are great if you’re not in a hurry.

Exactly.  You don't buy old Land Rovers for their on-road performance!  Still, I've done plenty of long trips in them and you don't really lose that much time.  No autobahns down this way...

[Phill S]

Well I'm about to replace my 18J with a 3.9 V8. I just need more power for my longer expedition trips with a load on - not so much for speed. It's fine for pootling about the lanes down here in West Cornwall, and great fun to drive, About to start a thread on that when I've peeled the brussels for 11.

Anyhow, I need to clear my workshop so will be disposing of a 19j with a blown head gasket and an 18J that's only done 3,500 miles if anybody's interested...

[Mo Murphy]

I've never understood the appeal of the 19J engine to some people 🤯

Mo

[Retroanaconda]

They are a fair bit quieter than a Tdi?

(clutching at straws!)

[monkie]

1 hour ago, Mo Murphy said:

I've never understood the appeal of the 19J engine to some people 🤯

Mo

Its the vintage. Having an original engine in a 1980s vehicle. 

[reb78]

It wasnt a horrible engine. With them both In factory tune, I didnt really notice a huge difference between the 19j and the 200tdi. It was smoother and quieter than the tdi. Mine would trundle along at 80 on the motorway if I wanted. 
 

Trouble is, most gave up at or just over 150k due to the weaknesses in the design. 

[jeremy996]

45 minutes ago, reb78 said:

It wasnt a horrible engine. With them both In factory tune, I didnt really notice a huge difference between the 19j and the 200tdi. It was smoother and quieter than the tdi. Mine would trundle along at 80 on the motorway if I wanted. 
 

Trouble is, most gave up at or just over 150k due to the weaknesses in the design. 

I DID notice a big difference between the 19J and a 200Tdi, but that was at 140k with four cracked pistons and more oil burnt than diesel! The 19J was a lot quieter and a bit smoother but I would not go back. When the 110CSW was rebuilt, one of the changes was rear disks as the 200Tdi powered vehicle seemed a bit under-braked when carrying a load or towing a car trailer.

[Snagger]

I had a 19J installed in my 109 in 1994.  It was allegedly removed for a 200Tdi fitting kit and had 86k on it.  It pulled the 109 brilliantly, but it lost 4 pints of oil through the rad overflow in 100 miles.  The head and pistons were scrap.  I replaced it with a 12J that I rebuilt myself, and that was a fantastically reliable engine.

I bought another in 2005 with 90k when I was rebuilding my 109 outright, but didn’t bother rebuilding that engine as it also had cracked head and pistons when I lifted the head to inspect it.  I was glad I only paid £50 for it!  At least its shafts were in really good condition and I could get a load of parts from it.  They are hopeless engines.

[monkie]

My 19J did a sterling job flying up the M5/M6 from Yeovil to Stoke and back, didn't miss a beat but I had my eye on the EGT gauge. Having said that, my 200Tdi pulls so much better up hills and I trust it more.