white90 Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 £1 said you were speaking to Devon4x4 who have vested interests in you spending a wad mine has seen plenty of usage in a number of winch challenges as have a few others. Tangoman(has x eng split charge) but similar batteries Exmoor cop exactly the same set up JST exactly the same SteveG exactly the same(different batteries supplied) Bishbosh same set up why not spend £100 on a pr of good lead acid and see how it goes before spending mucho casho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted December 7, 2006 Author Share Posted December 7, 2006 Its my drivers money - so i'm concerned more about safety, reliability and longevity than downright cost Is there a real risk of lead acid leakage from batteries in the event of a roll over, or should i just stop being a girl and get on with it? Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 I run a single 664 lead acid battery, save all the bother of split charge etc and at £60 quid a pop it suits my pocket. Although I only run a single 5.6hp winch, maybe with twin XP's I'd want two of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 well my lead acid batteries are sealed the car has been on its side and never a problem from acid leaking. from D44 x2 odyessy batteries(pc1500) £330 +delivery then a split charge (x eng recommended) £40+delivery so your looking at £400 realistically! I spent £100 batteries £20 cable (enough to do 2/3 cars) £5 crimps (just ran out after doing 2/3 cars) £15 battery cut off (fia approved one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Where does the electrical 'inertia' come from for this overshooting? If you connect two buckets of water together this doesn't happen, so obviously my mechy's analogy falls down here. Not totally sure, but..... If you connect two buckets together, you do get a diffusion of water from one to the other - and I guess that since the water exists in quanta (water molecules), at any given time, there may be a different number of molecules on one side to the other, giving a nett pressure differential. Since charge exists in quanta, and exhibits the same random (Brownian - I can't spell Heisenberg) motion, it should work in a similar way. There you go - quantum mechanics at work under your bottom! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted December 7, 2006 Author Share Posted December 7, 2006 Right then, after much swinging (oh er ) between options, it seems that 1x large amperage alternator charging two sealed lead acid batteries is the way to go. What do i need to know about them - what part/model numbers do i want? Who makes good ones and who sells them cheap? (cant find batteries on mole valley farmers website, and they are a bit too far away to just pop in) Can I get batteries mail order? Also - to return to my earlier question - split charge or not? Thanks all Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Since charge exists in quanta, and exhibits the same random (Brownian - I can't spell Heisenberg) motion, it should work in a similar way. Sorry - I don't buy that. There's no dividing membrane or boundary, so it's academic whether you determine a 'quantum' of charge is in the battery, terminal, connecting wire or elsewhere. I accept that parallel connection is bad, but this 'overshooting' business doesn't hold water for me as the reason behind it. ... but then nor does two chunky batteries really - I've got a hydraulic winch Being a skinflint, two Fiesta batteries in split charge does appeal though coz they're cheaper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted December 7, 2006 Author Share Posted December 7, 2006 £20 cable (enough to do 2/3 cars)£5 crimps (just ran out after doing 2/3 cars) Just spotted this, where did you get your cable and crimps from? Ive just spent 120quid on cable from Vehicle wiring products, and another 20quid on crimps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 cable from http://www.agregister.co.uk/company-96022173.htmlagritac in Williton or any welding suppliers I use 35mm2 or you can use 50mm2 Crimps from http://www.devondale.net/ electrical wholesalers 35mm2 cable. requires 35-8mm from the winch end and 35mm-10 for the battery methods of crimping are in the tech archive. split charge if you want one x eng see Simonr on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 True, split charges do in general put the bateries in parallel, but the reason for having one runs a bit deeper than you suggest.Lead acid batteries do not like being trickle charged. It's one of the reasons you need to replace emergency lighting & UPS batteries every couple of years. If you charge or discharge two bateries in parallel, unless they are very well matched, they will wind up with slightly different amounts of charge and different terminal voltages. If you leave them connected, one battery will pump charge in to the other. That would be fine, except it overshoots and the other battery starts pumping charge back to the first. The amounts of charge are tiny - it would take years to flatten the batteries this way - but it is just like trickle charging the batteries! The terminal voltage will stay the same, the peak current will stay more or less the same - what changes over time is the capacity. The reduction in capacity is much harder to measure than the voltage or current and because the change is slow, most people will not notice it. You will however be reducing the length of time you can run your winch for without letting the engine charge it up. The split charge just isolates the batteries except when they are being charged or discharged and stops this cross-flow. If you do decide to ignore this, then at least use two new, identical batteries. This will give you the best matching and reduce the need for a split charge. You can actually buy batteries designed to connect in parallel. Hawker Cyclone is a good example. These are Laser trimmed to make them an exact match for one another. Si Si, That description is excellent ……………. Batteries are dear to my heart ……..you may not know this, but I was probably one of the first people to build a reliable pulse discharge charger for niCd’s and that was the best part of 30 years ago ………….. now they are as common as muck………. maybe I should have expanded upon it ! Lead Acid batteries are strange creatures …………. Like Si says, they really don’t like being trickle charged………. this causes furring of the plates which eventually leads to short circuits within each cell…………… if you must trickle charge (or float) a battery then at least four times a year it should be fully discharged and then recharged at a reasonable current. The mismatch in batteries is due to the internal electrical resistance of the cells. This is a complex function and really should be correctly termed as impedance because it contains R, C & L. However, the real player in this function is the material impurities within the cell structure. Wet & Dry cell manufacturing has come a very long way in the last 10 years and the impurities are now negligible…………. therefore, as Si correctly says, …. cells of the same manufacture and age can be connected in parallel without noticeable degradation of the cell performance. One of the main reasons for split charging was to isolate the auxiliary battery from the main battery, therefore always leaving you with a battery that is capable of starting the vehicle when the Aux battery has been exhausted. I haven’t really looked at ‘modern cutting edge’ split charging technology, but the draw back was always that the Aux battery would never, ever, fully charge due to the voltage drop across the split charging diode, but I guess that problem has been fixed by Vmos technology. On a final note, I fully agree with Simons un-stated sentiments (hope I read between the lines correctly !)…………. Fashion spiral cells that command high prices are not as trick as you think they are …………. a relatively inexpensive agricultural sealed lead acid will do the job equally as well………….. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 I haven’t really looked at ‘modern cutting edge’ split charging technology, but the draw back was always that the Aux battery would never, ever, fully charge due to the voltage drop across the split charging diode, but I guess that problem has been fixed by Vmos technology. Yup, split charging diodes are very rarely used anymore, Voltage Sensitive Relays solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted December 7, 2006 Author Share Posted December 7, 2006 Just ordered a pair of Bosch 096 Batteries for £29.46 each, thanks to everyone for all your help and suggestions Can anyone recommend a good source for 120amp+ alternators Cheers Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 a Freelander one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocKeR Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 Just ordered a pair of Bosch 096 Batteries for £29.46 each, thanks to everyone for all your help and suggestions Can anyone recommend a good source for 120amp+ alternators Cheers Lewis Where did you but the batteries? MVF? Do they do online or telephone sales and ship them? I got my 120 A alternator off X-Eng. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted December 7, 2006 Author Share Posted December 7, 2006 Where did you but the batteries? MVF? Do they do online or telephone sales and ship them? The Batteries were supplied at cost by a land rover owning friend who works as parts manager at a kia/toyota dealership. I went round after she had finished work to collect them from her house. I dont know if they ship them but they certainly do phone sales HTH Lewis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nas90 Posted December 7, 2006 Share Posted December 7, 2006 I have run two identical (that's the improtant bit) batteries in parallel for a couple of years with no probs and I get stuck a lot! Also now that you have that dirty fuel engine just remember a few years back when we were Greenlaning in Wales and the two V8 Nineties were pulling you out and you had a blooming nice V8 to play with! Tsch Tschhhhhhhhhhhhhh................ and you couldn't fit my BFG muds under the wheel arches either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted December 8, 2006 Share Posted December 8, 2006 and you couldn't fit my BFG muds under the wheel arches either! Don't remind me - I could fit the bu99ers now though and I gave them back!!! Talk about gift horse! Ho hum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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