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Scooby Jim

300tdi turbo upgrade.

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Hi guys, I usually post with the series guys as I have an `88 Series 3 1972 3.5 V8, but I also have a discovery 300TDI ES.
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Now my turbo is on its way, smokes a lot, and has blue smoke on overrun after first started, I have taken a mate who has a Disco and he confirmed my thoughts.

She had a recon engine on 120k odd, now just turned 200k, and it runs sweet as a nut. So I am thinking of upgrading the turbo. 
It has a straight through exhaust, EGR delete, pump turned up a tad, and a snorkel, so I was planning on getting a Hybrid turbo core, new actuator, and a standard position larger tube and fin ally intercooler, and a boost gauge.

What you guys think of this core?? It is supposed to fit inside the standard Garrett turbo, and give earlier boost etc etc (insert sales pitch here).
https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/webshop/prod_5481949-Uprated-Billet-Hybrid-Turbo-CHRA-Core-452055-Land-Rover-Defender-Discovery-Turbocharger-Cartridge.html

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Deleting the EGR had no effect on performance or economy - it's only open at very low throttle settings, but makes a big difference to NOx emissions.  I believe it's illegal to remove it, likewise the DPF in the exhaust, which doesn't significantly affect performance if kept clean (which running the engine hard does, and that is what you must be doing if you need a bigger boost).  An easy breathing intercooler makes sense.  I can't see a snorkel helping performance.

Turbo Technics in Northampton would be your best source of advice and replacement - they do repairs and replacements for JLR directly, as well as sales to the public, and do plenty of hybrids and VNT turbo versions at very fair prices.

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A straight through exhaust is an excellent way to lunch the turbo seals - too much scavenge; end up 'pulling oil through

First suggestion is; are you sure it's the turbo. Valve stem seals will do the same

Read Daan's intercooler stuff

EGR and DPF/CAT are age dependant on legality to remove - look it up on Google

You can buy a new turbo cartridge and fit yourself

You have already said it runs as sweet as a nut. Chucking a hybrid turbo on a 200k engine will simple bring it's demise forward. I would check it is the turbo and not the stem seals. If it is the stems, then have the head reconned and then refit it, leaving the rest of the engine well enough alone. A standard 300tdi in either auto or manual form is fine for pretty much anything

 

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On 24/04/2017 at 8:15 AM, Snagger said:

Deleting the EGR had no effect on performance or economy - it's only open at very low throttle settings, but makes a big difference to NOx emissions.  I believe it's illegal to remove it, likewise the DPF in the exhaust, which doesn't significantly affect performance if kept clean (which running the engine hard does, and that is what you must be doing if you need a bigger boost).  An easy breathing intercooler makes sense.  I can't see a snorkel helping performance.

Turbo Technics in Northampton would be your best source of advice and replacement - they do repairs and replacements for JLR directly, as well as sales to the public, and do plenty of hybrids and VNT turbo versions at very fair prices.

Snorkel will remove the restriction on the intake, and also has a ram effect at speed. As for EGR, was removed before I had it, and the standard exhaust never had a DPF as far as I know, it was just a standard centre box and rear box, which was rotten and full of black carp.

 

On 24/04/2017 at 9:24 AM, honitonhobbit said:

A straight through exhaust is an excellent way to lunch the turbo seals - too much scavenge; end up 'pulling oil through

First suggestion is; are you sure it's the turbo. Valve stem seals will do the same

Read Daan's intercooler stuff

EGR and DPF/CAT are age dependant on legality to remove - look it up on Google

You can buy a new turbo cartridge and fit yourself

You have already said it runs as sweet as a nut. Chucking a hybrid turbo on a 200k engine will simple bring it's demise forward. I would check it is the turbo and not the stem seals. If it is the stems, then have the head reconned and then refit it, leaving the rest of the engine well enough alone. A standard 300tdi in either auto or manual form is fine for pretty much anything

 

As said the engine is on 80k, as it had a recon engine at 120k.

I know its not the stem seals as the intake pipe pre turbo is getting lots of oil in it, and there is shaf play, yes I know that journal bearings will allow some lateral movement, but mine has linear and lateral. Its deffo the turbo.

 

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Intake pipe pre turbo? That would be oil form the sump breather oil condenser - post turbo pipe would be a possible sign of turbo seals (but not necessarily)

Recon engine - do you mean Gold Seal or an engine that someone has sold as recon? Was the turbo replaced at this time?

Ram effect on a snorkel is negligible - overcome by all the bends and restrictions

Most 300TDi's had a catalytic converter

As I said before, a straight through pipe will cause excess scavenge. put a back box on

 

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12 hours ago, honitonhobbit said:

Intake pipe pre turbo? That would be oil form the sump breather oil condenser - post turbo pipe would be a possible sign of turbo seals (but not necessarily)

Recon engine - do you mean Gold Seal or an engine that someone has sold as recon? Was the turbo replaced at this time?

Ram effect on a snorkel is negligible - overcome by all the bends and restrictions

Most 300TDi's had a catalytic converter

As I said before, a straight through pipe will cause excess scavenge. put a back box on

 

My bad when I said straight through it does have a backbox.
Same as this below, the system which was on it originally was fudged, and only had a centre section and back box, so I can only imagine it has been removed in the past.
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The oil had a visible trail from the turbo, and there is definitely play in the shaft. Its a different turbo to my Impreza but both are journal bearing turbos, a TD05-16g and the Garrett T250, and it deffo has a LOT more play than it should. Will have a proper look as you can hear it trying to boost, but its just smoke and no real urgency, just feels like a peppy 2.5 n/a.

I just thought that if I were to replace the turbo for a like for like, then it would cost more than a slight upgrade with that core. As the core uses the standard intake housing,the boost can be managed to keep the boost safe. 

Can you confirm this for me?? That there is a threaded hole (blanked with a plug) on the rear of the intake manifold, that can be used to fit a banjo and a vacuum line so that the actuator is run from manifold pressure instead of turbo exit pressure, so that the losses that usually occur with intercooler piping is over come. Also that using a manual boost controller, (NOT bleed valve) set to manufacturers boost levels will stop any actuator creep?? 

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1. Intake hole - yes and no. Some do and some don't. Doesn't seem to be a reason. More do than don't

2. I've yet to drive a 300 with a hybrid turbo or upgraded turbo that actually drives well across the range. Easy to tune for certain applications - low down grunt or mid range, or high range. I think the standard set up works the best for real world applications

3. I would suggest you buy a replacement cartridge kit off one of the more reputable eBay suppliers and build one up - or spend the money on a rebuilt turbo from one of the many reputable suppliers around the UK.

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I have done some investigation and the turbo is definitely fudged, I took the intake pipe off it and put my fingers onto the compressor wheel and tried to rotate it.
The wheel would would NOT turn easily, infact it was quite hard. With my Impreza's TD05 journal bearing turbo it spins quite freely, but this I had to use two fingers to grip the nut, this would turn about an eighth to a quarter of a turn then a LOT of resistance. This resistance would get overcome all of a sudden, this repeats every eighth to a quarter of a turn.
I've ordered a new intercooler, and going to take a punt on a "uprated" new core, I'm not expecting anything great, but for the cost it seems good.

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Good that you found such a clear indication of the oil source, just a shame it's an expensive fix.

I think intercooler replacements can remove a fair bit of restriction, but snorkels just add another.  The ram snorkels probably work out even, while a mushroom type will always make the engine a bit wheezy, but I never understood the point of fitting a snorkel to then scoop in all the dust, rain, snow or whatever.  I know that rain and snow is supposed to be drained near the base of the ram on Safari snorkels after running along the back of the ram, and you can spin the top around in dusty conditions, but the mushroom types do clean the air better so still seem a better option to me, even if they do make the breathing just that little bit harder than with the side intake.  The side intake would suffer Venturi effect at any significant road speed, so it's debateable if a mushroom snorkel adds any penalty.  If it does, I doubt there would be much in it.

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I did some flow bench work on snorkels, for an article, back a few years ago. I found that the Donaldson type, centrifugal tops, work the best. I also found that all that convoluted hose, couplings and such like are not good at all...

Jim, did you read Daan's post on intercoolers?

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On 09/05/2017 at 0:14 PM, honitonhobbit said:

I did some flow bench work on snorkels, for an article, back a few years ago. I found that the Donaldson type, centrifugal tops, work the best. I also found that all that convoluted hose, couplings and such like are not good at all...

Jim, did you read Daan's post on intercoolers?

No I havent, do you have a link??

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This one? 

 

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Ah yes :) The one I quoted gives in and out temps for various driving situations. :)

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Some VERY interesting reading there, however when I said what I wanted to do my brother bought me an intercooler after going through my Ebay watch list (as an idea only).
So now I a tube and fin Ally intercooler.
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I want to get hold of an old 300tdi turbo so that I can strip it down and fit a new core to, as if there are any issues with bolts or studs snapping in the cast Iron I can sort this whilst still being able to drive the vehicle.

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I'm no expert, but should those welds have penetrated better on the inside of the tank in your bottom pic?

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57 minutes ago, reb78 said:

I'm no expert, but should those welds have penetrated better on the inside of the tank in your bottom pic?

Probably, but as long as its air tight and holds pressure thats all that matters.

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Anyone have a dead turbo for sale, that I can stripdown to build this? 
As if I run into snapped bolts or studs on the turbo fixings I can sort, also makes changing over a bit easier.
Will be getting new oil hose, feed and return, new gaskets etc etc etc.

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I went and picked up a Turbo that was "dead" so i could strip it down, and rebuild with the new core.
The turbo looked ok, but when I stripped it down I found it was fudged. Initially the manifold side was cracked, (this I emailed the rebuild company and they said that it should be fine), BUT the next issue was the killer, the scroll underneath was cracked and causing the impeller wheel to hit the sides.
So this just acted as a practice session for my own.
Some pics.
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Now I decided to bite the bullet and take my one off, so started the strip down, replaced my original intercooler the amount of oil inside was horrific.
The turbo came apart nicely after I made a specialist tool to remove the core bolts, basically a 13mm swan neck spanner with the head ground down to fit between the cores fin and the bolt. Made life MUCH easier. I have replaced the oil feed and return pipes, and the adaptors that screw into the block are now sealed in using PTFE tape, and its all ready to go back on.What I will be doing however is cutting off the end of the old oil feed pipe and routing it back into the block, this will allow me to run the engine till the oil is warm with oil flush inside, as I have new oil and filter.
I have also fitted a Banjo onto the rear of the manifold for the new boost feed to the actuator, have also changed the turbo outlet from a twin feed to a single feed, this will allow the fuel pump feed to remain the same. I also have ordered a manual boost controller and a boost gauge with a pod, so will start off with the spring pressure in the new actuator I have also ordered. Only item I am debating on, is an Exhaust Gas Temp sensor, with probe in the EGR blank.


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Engine all run up to temp, oil flush added, run for 20mins oil dropped. Replaced with new filter and oil.

New actuator fitted and ready for instal now.

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Well done, looks like a proper job now. Thanks for posting the pics and the writeup. Have to let us know how it runs.^_^

Edited by pete3000
smiley broken

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Be interested to know your thoughts on the core and whether there are any gains? I think you said it was a hybrid earlier?

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