L90-v8 Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 hi all in the near future I'm going to pull the 3.5 with hotwire out an replace with a 4.6 using thor sensors injectors etc an thor top end and using a 3.9 serp front cover with a blank in the dizzy hole I need to get a idea of what I need before I buy a kit or buy the parts I need to make it work I want to run spark and fuel what system should I be using ms1 ms2 ms3 I guess I don't need ms3 its a bit over kill I would like the option of being able to run a stepper motor if I ever chose to go back to gems it would be nice but not necessary to be able to run two maps a sensible map for general road use an a daft map for daftness is this possible is there any benefits of running semi sequential or sequential over a batched system is it possible to run the map sensor externally rather than in the ecu thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_pete Posted May 11, 2017 Share Posted May 11, 2017 Ms1 v3, batch fire, one map. Daily driving and interesting driving use different parts of the map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 I have Ms1 and Ms2 in two rv8 powered vehicles, both on v3 boards, I have to say I prefer working with the ms2. Ms2 is needed if you want to drive a stepper air valve. Changing maps is not needed in reality, you just tune one for best power, which will usually also give you best economy if you can control your right foot! You could have a second map doing something silly with overrun fueling to give you some old school pops and bags on lifting off though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 I want to run spark and fuel Any/all will do that. what system should I be using ms1 ms2 ms3 I guess I don't need ms3 its a bit over kill MS1 will do everything you need and is the least complicated. MS2 board plugs in to MS1 CPU socket so you can upgrade later if you really must. I would like the option of being able to run a stepper motor if I ever chose to go back to gems MS1 can't natively do that but PWM valves work just as well. it would be nice but not necessary to be able to run two maps a sensible map for general road use an a daft map for daftness is this possible As quagmire says, in reality a decent map means you don't need to switch - when you're driving like a hooligan you're in a different bit of the map to when you're trundling around. is there any benefits of running semi sequential or sequential over a batched system None that you'd be likely to notice. It's very marginal, mostly emissions at idle. is it possible to run the map sensor externally rather than in the ecu Yep, plenty of people do it. I believe some OE external map sensors can be used too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 All the above, plus don't discount Microsquirt, which has very good support, is in a better package (IMHO) and can get them with uber-long looms so making a new one to fit your application is just a case of running the wires where they go, and terminating them etc. I don't run PWM or steppers any more, you can achieve a stable idle without them, even with added load, by tweaking the spark and fuel map accordingly. I tend to just use an extra air valve, more of a switch open than variable, to achieve the cold start idle-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 I believe Microsquirt is marginal in the number of injectors it can drive, could be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 I think you're right with the old version, but the newer one is quite happy, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 If you're using a Thor top end then you don't need stepper control and I can't think of any good reasons to ditch Thor in favour of Gems. Thor uses an IAC that can be controlled directly by any of the MS ECUs with just standard modifications. So, MS2x would be my choice as it's quick, smooth and reliable without the costs of an MS3X setup. I've updated my ECU to MS2X twice now and both times been impressed with how smoothly the engine runs compared to MS1x. Sadly both times I've ended up selling the MS2x on to someone else after being offered decent money and gone back to the old faithful MS1x. I should build another MS2 ECU but I haven't had the time. MS1x is solid and reliable, just a bit "agricultural" when compared to MS2 but then I've been running MS1x for over 15 years now on the same ECU without a problem so there's something to be said for it's "agricultural" nature ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_pete Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 How much slicker and costlyer is ms2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 12, 2017 Share Posted May 12, 2017 Worth noting, microsquirt is MS2 based now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L90-v8 Posted May 12, 2017 Author Share Posted May 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Dave W said: If you're using a Thor top end then you don't need stepper control and I can't think of any good reasons to ditch Thor in favour of Gems. Thor uses an IAC that can be controlled directly by any of the MS ECUs with just standard modifications. I probably wont ever ditch the thor but its nice to know I can go back to jems if I ever wanted too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L90-v8 Posted May 12, 2017 Author Share Posted May 12, 2017 13 hours ago, Quagmire said: Changing maps is not needed in reality, you just tune one for best power, which will usually also give you best economy if you can control your right foot that's really hard to keep off the loud pedal when the eight sounds so nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Hi ALL As a Admin / and Owner of www.megasquirt-v8.co.uk with the possible conflict I am staying off this threadwith my personal thoughts and letting members voice their own thoughts experinces and views. I am happy to answer where and whatever you ask if others don't, and happy to chat on phone. But You will love whatever version you go for , its a bit addictive. If you end up going with parts I cant do I know where to point you to to get them, the megasquirt community is slightly incestous lol Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 17 hours ago, mad_pete said: How much slicker and costlyer is ms2? MS2 is about $60 more expensive if you're buying from scratch (cost of an MS1 kit versus the cost of an MS2 kit) $279 for MS2 $219 for MS1. To upgrade an existing MS1 to MS2 is around $100 Performance wise the MS2 processor is a massive upgrade over the MS1 version both in speed and capabilities. It's that speed that allows it to make much finer adjustments to everything so, in simple terms, while the MS1 can adjust the fuel being injected in 256 steps the MS2 can adjust it in 1024 steps. Ignition timing is also more accurate and the MS2-Extra firmware is much more advanced than the MS1 version as the processor can support it. There is a version of firmware that runs on MS1 and was kind of the predecessor of MS2-Extra, called MS1-HR (high resolution) which sacrificed some functionality (like dual tables) for finer control and that can be used as a stepping stone but it's not been updated very much since it's inception as so few people are running it. MS2 is quicker to respond to events and has a much finer control of ignition and fuel. The firmware is far more advanced than MS1-Extra and takes advantage of the speed and capabilities of the processor to give you much better control of all aspects. The downside of MS2 versus MS1 is that all the options can take longer to get used to and mistakes in the configuration can be harder to identify. As long as you are methodical and make regular backups of your configuration it's not really an issue though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mad_pete Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 Thanks for the information. I didn't realise you can upgrade from 1 to 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L90-v8 Posted May 13, 2017 Author Share Posted May 13, 2017 thanks for all the input so far I'm leaning towards a ms2 if the 8 will run just that little sweeter I don't mind a little bit more agro/effort if the results are better will the ms2 run a 3 pin bosch thor type idle control nige your input is welcome as I will be purchasing all this from you anyway it was your website that brought me here an join to find out the info I need im a complete efi novice any input is helpful feel free to pm me with any suggestions even if its your opinion I'm willing to listen I will be making a call to you soon once I get my head round what I want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted May 13, 2017 Share Posted May 13, 2017 51 minutes ago, L90-v8 said: I'm leaning towards a ms2 if the 8 will run just that little sweeter I don't mind a little bit more agro/effort if the results are better will the ms2 run a 3 pin bosch thor type idle control It will but you will need to drive it as a PWM valve with resistor on one side. There's a recent thread on this on here somewhere. The MS3X is the only one that can control it in the way the Thor system does (by controlling both sides of it) but using it as a PWM works really well anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L90-v8 Posted May 14, 2017 Author Share Posted May 14, 2017 now you mention it I think I saw that too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I have had a few peeps who have come unstuck on MS3. Its so advanced and complex that getting it to run properly can be a nightmare compared with MS1 or MS2. MS1 is frankly all thats needed for a 50s Buick V8 Rover engine, unless it has serious mods that would see the benifit of MS2. MS1 is easier to get to grips, with and can be upgraded to MS2 if you really wnat to. Forget MS3 unless you like life tough, have money to burn, and are bright enough to sort it ou LOL Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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