Geert DCPU Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Any experience here with the X-Eng handbrake conversion on a td4 2.2? X-eng claims to have hundreds of satisfied customers who fitted this already - I'm looking for 1 of those... Thx, Geert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crwoody Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 They may have improved over the years and I have no recent experience of them but I fitted one to a Td5 Defender 90 a few years ago and have to say I was disapointed with it. It seemed to work quite well at first and would certainly "hold" well although it was a bit tricky to get set up correctly initially, but it used to snatch badly if used as an emergency brake, much less control than the normal drum. What finished it for me though was that the disk got "out of true" after some off-roading, (may have caught it and damaged it slightly although I could net see any damage,) after this you could hear it catching on the pads/caliper while turning so I removed it and re-fitted the original drum. The X-Eng disk brake was sold to me on the basis that "it doesn't get clogged with mud" but to be honest I never really had that problem with the drum anyway, however with the disk pads being relatively small and completely open to all the mud and dirt they seemed to wear a lot quicker than the original shoes which I never had to replace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 If the pads wore, I suspect it was adjusted too close, they shouldn't be touching the disc in normal running or even when it is moving. The handbrake on a LR is only ever used in *emergency* to stop the vehicle, you will damage the drum handbrake and/or the transmission if you do this often. I have had one on my RRC a long time, and it has always worked very well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Another happy owner here. I used to either have a constantly jammed handbrake, or one that didn't work with the early type drum handbrake. It was generally the expander that got stuck after a heavy off roading session through deep mud. Consequently I was always having the drum off and the expander apart for a clean. The X brake may not be perfect - I did sometimes find a degree of light rubbing, as if the disk was warped. I should point out that fitting the disk to a less than perfectly clean drive flange can produce this condition, so correct fitting is important. However, it always worked when required, and never jammed on me. Those latter points makes it far superior to the standard fitment, IN AN OFF ROAD APPLICATION. I pointed out to someone else recently that IMO if you don't off road, this device is not really necessary. A correctly maintained drum brake works very well, even with big trailers attached. If your handbrake is giving trouble and you only drive on the roads, just correct the problem to standard spec, and it'll work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geert DCPU Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 As I mentionned in another topic (without response): I did the conversion on a MY2014 TD4 2.2. There is no clearance whatsoever, the top of the caliper operating lever is even just underneath the cross member of the chassis, the pictures in the other topic show a play up to 10-12mm... (TD5-setup I believe) As there is no clearance the drivetrain gives an enormous amount of vibrations and loud noise, plus the spring is under constant pressure giving no space to the pads in the caliper, resulting in a constant metal-on-metal noise and heating up the disk. I've been told that there is a difference in lenght between the gearbox of a def td5 an the newer td4 2.4/2.2 - so the kit should not be mountable in the newer versions. I compared the gearbox of an 2.4 to mine and there is 6-7mm difference (2.2 longer), so the mounting on TD5 & TD4 2.4 should work. I have no TD5 at hand to compare. Mailing to X-eng brings only the remark of 'hundreds of satisfied clients' and that my Defender is a one of a kind. So I brought back the the quest of finding those hundreds into that one person. Adjusting the crossmember by grinding is no option as the MOT does not allow this type of adaptation to the chassis, resulting in a non-legal vehicle. Conclusion sofar: either there is an engineeringflow or my def is really unique... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litch Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I have had one fitted to my 300TDi 90 for several years and have had no problems with it. The OE hand-brake is fine if correctly maintained but for some reason some people seem to have difficulty with it and think that it is easier to replace the whole thing with an X-brake, it may seem an extreme way of resolving the issue but each to their own. One thing about the X-Brake is that in my experience it will not clog with mud and when wet dies out in an instant, it is practically maintenance free and still on its first set of pads. I would love to know what the term "emergency braking" means in what I assume to be a situation where the vehicle is still moving? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Geert DCPU said: As I mentionned in another topic (without response): I did the conversion on a MY2014 TD4 2.2. There is no clearance whatsoever, the top of the caliper operating lever is even just underneath the cross member of the chassis, the pictures in the other topic show a play up to 10-12mm... (TD5-setup I believe) As there is no clearance the drivetrain gives an enormous amount of vibrations and loud noise, plus the spring is under constant pressure giving no space to the pads in the caliper, resulting in a constant metal-on-metal noise and heating up the disk. I've been told that there is a difference in lenght between the gearbox of a def td5 an the newer td4 2.4/2.2 - so the kit should not be mountable in the newer versions. I compared the gearbox of an 2.4 to mine and there is 6-7mm difference (2.2 longer), so the mounting on TD5 & TD4 2.4 should work. I have no TD5 at hand to compare. Mailing to X-eng brings only the remark of 'hundreds of satisfied clients' and that my Defender is a one of a kind. So I brought back the the quest of finding those hundreds into that one person. Adjusting the crossmember by grinding is no option as the MOT does not allow this type of adaptation to the chassis, resulting in a non-legal vehicle. Conclusion sofar: either there is an engineeringflow or my def is really unique... Can you take a wider picture, looks to me like you've not fitted it correctly but difficult to tell from a close up pic of a tiny part of the brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 BTW - who did you contact, I didn't think X-Eng sold directly anymore? Simon-R used to post frequently on here (don't know if he still does). He was/is X-Eng. Looking here: https://foundry4x4.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=65_1757&product_id=56 There doesn't seem to be any options for a Defender X-Brake. And I don't see why the LT230 on a 2.2 Puma would be any different to any other, by and large. And you said the 2.4 gearbox is in a different place. That doesn't make sense unless I'm missing something. The 2.2 and 2.4 engines are largely the same externally, both Puma engines. They use the same gearbox and the same LT230. A Td5 uses a different gearbox. I do understand that you must be frustrated, but I think there is a piece of the puzzle that is missing. You can get the install instructions from here. Maybe it's worth double checking that it is installed correctly: https://foundry4x4.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=65_1783 For the record, I have an X-Brake on my Series III 88. Slightly different design to the coil sprung vehicles. But yes I'm pleased with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry m Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I've got one of the first ones made for Defenders been on the Landy for many years that long I can't remember I have never had a problem with it, it's one of the best mods I've done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I have one fitted on my 90, it's great! A breeze to fit and does the job perfectly I'm one of the hundreds of happy customers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Got one on my 110 too, my fit post is in our tech archive. one of the best mods out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geert DCPU Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) The hundreds of happy installers: I truly believe they exist, but not on the 2.2-engine... The mounting seems to be correct, all pieces in the box used The contact/reply with X-eng came through my local (Belgian) dealer. Via the Belgian forumgroups I found there were some conversions up to the TD5-engine - and no troubles with it. The only fitting on a TD4 2.4 was having the same lack of clearence - and was ultimately reconversed to the standard handbrake (due to MOT-regulations we are not allowed to grind the chassis). Apparantly I'm the only 2.2-fitter at the moment. As I understand the explanation done by a local 4x4-specialist: between the Puma 2.2-engine and gearbox there is a thing called 'klok', translated litterally to 'clock' - don't know the exact English word. This 'clock' seems to be 6-7 mm larger, so the gearbox and transferbox (same as in the TD5) are further backworths positioned, resulting in the problems I have now. X-eng mentionned that 'Defender is Defender' - crossmembers & chassis are not 100% alike, so combined no clearance at all. (To be honest: when told like that: all the possible alarms go of and *investigative mode* goes on) Edited June 21, 2017 by Geert DCPU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldorf Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Hi Geert. Klok = bellhousing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Been out to look at mine to try and see where you might be having an issue and took a pic for comparison. Bear in mind my transfer box is around 15cm further back than a standard setup due to the long gearbox adaptor between the gearbox and transfer box. I still can't see on your pictures what is catching, is it the operating arm catching on the cross member or something catching on the chassis rails ? If the latter, maybe the gearbox mounts are too low ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geert DCPU Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 @Dave W: the chassis doesn't look like mine. Is it a td4? I marked in green on the picture where the the top of the caliper operating lever is touching the crossmember. Anyone who knows if the bellhousing (thx waldorf!) is different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuddyWinny Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I fitted and X-Brake a number of years ago due to problems with mud in the drum brake and have to agree that it doesn't clog up with mud. I'm one of those happy customer but I do have a problem similar to what you describe. As the disc rotates I can hear it brushing against the pads at a certain point. Removing the centre seat and arranging this so that you can turn the disc by hand (e.g. jack up a rear wheel - chocking the fronts) I could see that the disc appeared to have runout, i.e. when looking carefully at the disc and the bracket the disc appeared to 'wobble'. No matter how much I adjust the caliper once the hand brake has been applied the caliper automatically adjusts so that it is close enough for the disc to brush against the pads one each rotation (but not constantly is that makes sense). A photo of mine would show uneven pad wear and the disc scrubbed clean unevenly. Since the apparent runout can be seen simply by looking I have tried placing other flat steel against the disc to see if it was warped (edge of a steel ruler and so forth) but everything points to the the disc being ok. Trying a fiend's disc didn't cure the problem. I spoke to Simon who was very helpful and suggested that there was a problem with the output flange (dirt between the disc and the flange, or possibly the flange not being machined square). Maybe it's worth mentioning I'd fitted a cheap flange from a blue box.... I would have thought you'd get the same symptoms if there was play in the output bearings. Happy to post a couple of pictures if anyone thinks it would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkey964 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I've had one fitted to my 300tdi for around 6 years.Had no problems at all with it, I've just changed the pads for generic JCB 3cx pads off the bay of Eeeee,IIRC think they cost about a tenner,as oposed to the 40 odd quid Foundry 4x4 charge for them. Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Looks like the answer you need was linked in one of the many threads you posted (I looked them up): Quote Hi Jonas, we have contacted one of our commercial customers ( a mining company) who operate several 2.4tdci 110 station wagons to see if they have had any problems fitting the X-brake. They stated that of the 16 2.4 tdci defenders they have fitted x-brakes to they have had to slightly modify the cross member on 6 vehicles by grinding away a small notch to allow clearance. They believe it is due to Land Rovers build tolerances being so “generous” and not a fault of the X Brake. We will try to send some photos of the modifications they have made to show you. Hope this is of help. Regards Foundry 4x4 Ltd From: http://xrover.be/Xforum/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=67337&hilit=handrem#p727083 So it appears to be due to LR build tolerances. Either grind a bit off the chassis and paint it black so nobody will notice, or try to find a different solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geert DCPU Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 37 minutes ago, elbekko said: , or try to find a different solution. that's what I'm trying - no need to invent the hot water if someone has had this problem and solved it, reason for the treads in Belgium and here. Grinding as suggested is no option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 It would be interesting to see where an RRC or Disco unit would sit? They use a different backplate. Another solution, how about redrilling the backplate holes around 10 degrees rotated? The brake won't care where it sits except for the tiny skid plate, and 10 degrees is unlikely to make the blindest bit of difference to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geert DCPU Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: how about redrilling the backplate holes around 10 degrees rotated? that's the thing I have in mind, but some experience at hand would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 It does show it extremely close in the instructions: I'm struggling to visualise it at the moment, it is too high or too low in the vehicle? As it looks from the instructions that it is was out of position only a bit it would bang that cross member. Regulations are mad aren't they.... you can't grind a notch in your chassis, but you can replace factory braking systems with aftermarket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 4 hours ago, Geert DCPU said: @Dave W: the chassis doesn't look like mine. Is it a td4? It's an old 110 V8 so a lot heavier duty/deeper than a 90 chassis, the crossmember near the brake is one that was added to support a centre mounted winch under the floor. My gearbox is a LOT longer than the Ford setup otherwise it'd be nowhere near that crossmember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 49 minutes ago, Geert DCPU said: Grinding as suggested is no option. I know the laws are different in your part of the world, but seriously, how would anyone ever know? And by the looks of things, it's not cutting it in half and rewelding, it'd be more like sanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Make plenty of room around the offending bit and hit it with a large hammer It's not cutting it, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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