steve b Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Yes that's the cause , Now it's off I'd fit 4x genuine or OEM , at the price you paid the others will almost certainly fail too , these are where the initial ignition burn takes place so are probably the hottest part of the combustion chamber . Good to see you have found the problem cheers Steve b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 steve b, Hi again mate,just like to say, i also appreciate your help along with Nick for identifying this problem, BEFORE i took the head off. By removing it, it put my mind at rest that it wasn't anything more serious. Question....Would you still change all 4 then, just to be sure? Cheers Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Dave Yes , it has to be worth it for piece of mind if nothing else , you now know they can fail and as Nick said , if you are unlucky it could disintegrate and trash a piston . there is not much that is stressed in a 2.5 diesel but the swirl/burn pots are . cheers Steve b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 TRASH A PISTON !!!!!!! Ok then, 4 it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 Right, ok...i've been looking into this ( Land Rover Toolbox Video's) Valve spring compressor.. and it seems to me, that, damage from a broken timing belt can also cause a bit of a mess with Tappet slides. These i shall have a look at, to see if there is any wear on the side walls etc etc. Also on the video, it shows that there may be wear on the Valve Guides although i do not have a so called Dial Gauge, nor do i know how to use one. Maybe if i'm going to go to the trouble of sorting Tappet slides etc, i may as well get the other bits done as well although i still have to examine them before i make a decision. I hope everything IS ok, otherwise....it's going to cost me a few quid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Absolutely replace all four hot spots, Dave. If one has failed, another might imminently, either through age and wear/heat, or through being cheap pattern parts. It's a frustratingly expensive and time consuming lesson, but the thing to take away from this is don't skimp on engine, transmission or safety related parts. Cheap pattern seat cushions or wing mirrors are one thing, but low quality engine, transmission, steering or brake components will cost you more in the medium term, if not cost you everything. If you do decide to take a look at the crank bearings, it's not a bad job on that engine. You'd drain the sump and remove it, then systematically remove each bearing cap and look at the condition of each bearing. Remember that it is the upper shell on the conrods that gets the most punishment through the compression and combustion strokes, so the lower shell can be deceiving. But by just nudging the piston up a few mm, you can easily remove that upper shell. Put them back in with a smear of fresh oil, not dry. You're looking for clean, white metal facing, not worn through to copper, or god forbid, through the copper into the backing material. Make sure you put everything back in exactly the same location and orientation as they came out. The main journals that support the crank in the block are bit harder to check without full dismantling, but if you can't get enough play on the crank with all the main caps off to get the upper shells out, then just check the lower shells - they take most of the force, so wear more than the uppers. In all likelihood, the crank is on its original size and the shells will be marked STD on their outside faces. They'll be marked -10, -20 and so on if they are undersize (thicker) for a reground crank. As long as the crank journals aren't damaged or showing obvious signs of wear, then replacing the shells without removing the crank is fine. have a look for excess crank end float, too - there are some soft metal thrust bushes on the middle main bearing to control it, and they can wear too, especially the aft one if drivers tend to ride the clutch a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 14 hours ago, skirky dave said: Right, ok...i've been looking into this ( Land Rover Toolbox Video's) Valve spring compressor.. and it seems to me, that, damage from a broken timing belt can also cause a bit of a mess with Tappet slides. These i shall have a look at, to see if there is any wear on the side walls etc etc. Also on the video, it shows that there may be wear on the Valve Guides although i do not have a so called Dial Gauge, nor do i know how to use one. Maybe if i'm going to go to the trouble of sorting Tappet slides etc, i may as well get the other bits done as well although i still have to examine them before i make a decision. I hope everything IS ok, otherwise....it's going to cost me a few quid. Yep - they get hammered by the push rod and can be bent or cracked. I had one where the socket for the pushrod was cracked and missing a whole side. Make sure you remove the cam follower rollers - it's not uncommon for them to be like 50p pieces, and that doesn't do much for the cam shaft. You can see the cam shaft lobes if you remove the black plates on the side of the block (supporting the lift pump and aft bracket for the injection pump). It is safe to rotate the engine (not run it) with the plates removed. The step inside the follower bores in your photo is the removable sleeve. The followers come as individual sets of sleeve, roller and bronze phosphor slider. Removing the side bolt will allow all three parts to be removed out the top of the block. Worn valve guides would show as gradual oil loss and a fair bit of oily smoke on start up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Hi Nick,...ok mate, that gives me a fair account of what to look for, thank you. I thought the Tappet slides were made of brass, but there you go. If i look over the o/s wing into the cylinder head area they do look brassy in colour. Not that it matters much. Question though,..to remove the Tappet slides and Rollers, would it make it easier to rotate the crankshaft ( with a socket by hand ) until the piston comes right to the top, so the followers are at the highest point, is this what you mean??. And secondly, are the rollers magnetic, if so i have an adjustable telescopic length magnet to retrieve them, if not i suppose a bent welding rod should do the job. God i hope the crankshaft is ok !!!. Having said that, when the guy at Sheffield Engine Services listened to the engine, he thought it sounded pretty sweet. May not be as bad as i think and that the loose hotspot was creating all the trouble. I may be Very lucky. I'm away for a few days after tomorrow so when i get back it will be nose to the grindstone with this. I have made a few initial enquiries regarding costs of items as follows Turner Engineering Hotspots = £18.00 x 4 = £72.00 Valve Guides = £7.39 x8 = £59.12 Tappet slides = £8.34 x 8 = £66.72 Total £197.84. OUCH !!!!!!! All prices include VAT Plus delivery charge On top of this...Main shells etc etc + Fitting at sheffield engine services for valve guides, hotspots. If the parts cost this much, i don't really mind, as long as their quality parts and i don't have to do the job again in a hurry. More expense HO...HUM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 19 hours ago, skirky dave said: You might not need valve guides. The cam follower slides are bronze phosphor, which is brass coloured. Brass is very hard, which would damage the rollers and in turn the cam lobes, but bronze phosphor is a soft metal, used in bushes and synchro baulk rings to avoid damage to other parts. You may find the thrust bushes on the crank shaft are made of this. If you ever open up the gear box ot transfer box, you'll find plenty of it in there. Spigot bushes are also from this. The cam follower rollers are steel, so a strong magnet may lift them out. It depends on the nature of the steel - some steels, like stainless, aren't very magnetic. A hook made of coat hanger wire will work. Remove the roller before the outer sleeve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Sorry for late reply Nick, i'm still packing for extended weekend, ( Before the onslaught of the engine and the emptying of the pockets). Wow, a lot of information there!!!.Your obviously not scared to rip the guts out of these motors. I am still learning and there's many many jobs i've never taken on. Still,..i took the advice from yourself and Les with the previous job ( expert help required post) and everything went perfect. So....here we go again. I shall post again when i get back and let you know what i find, with a few pics hopefully. Cheers Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 I've built a 12J, 200Tdi and 300Tdi up from individual parts, and all of them run beautifully. The only issue I get is oil consumption on the 200, which I think is bore glazing from the running in (the pistons got coked by some bad fuel, and while I stripped them, I didn't see any bore deposits, so neglected to clean them up, but glazing is clear...), but despite that, it runs sweetly - my wife is with it right now at its storage site running it and pumping up the tires; it needed a jump start, but apparently fired instantly again, and this time it had been stood for nine months untouched. I'm feeling a bit smug, but I like to think I have a reasonable understanding of these engines for an amateur! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted September 15, 2017 Author Share Posted September 15, 2017 Hi again Nick and guys. Sorry i've not post anything regarding the ( Ticking Noise ) but after my last weekend trip my other half wanted to go on holiday, so.... Anyway this gave me some time to reflect on things regarding the engine and in the end, i've decided to bite the bullet and try to get as much done as i can in one go. Obviously this has meant saving up lots of pennies as this will cost a few quid to do it right. I don't really want to be stripping the head off again in a hurry !!!. So..i've still to check the Tappet Guides but it's been raining again and again. Depending on what i find under closer inspection will determine if i buy a full new set. Plus valve guides, plus new hotspots, new valve stems plus FITTING!!. I'M kind of looking around the £250-300 pound mark i reckon. So anyway, i shall let you know my findings as soon as i'm able. Cheers Dave. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted September 22, 2017 Author Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just to give anyone who's interested in this post, the heads up,...All parts have been sought and the engine is now at the engineers having new hotspots etc etc etc put in. Anyone know if video's can be put on here ??. If so, i'll give it a go once the cylinder head is back. Cheers for now, Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 good to hear you are under way with it Dave , I'd imagine video's would have to go on youtube or similar first keep us posted cheers Steve b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 You can upload from your phone, size is limited though. Stick it on YouTube, easiest for everyone then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted September 26, 2017 Author Share Posted September 26, 2017 Steve b / Bowie 69, Hi guys, nice to hear from you again. Right ok i'll have a look into youtube. It's not something i had thought about but i may give it a go. Just waiting to hear from the engineers now, so....yes i will keep you posted. Got to have a nip down there in a day or so just to see how things are going. Get back to you soon. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 Hi guys, ok here's the latest update thus far. The guy at the engine services has been on holiday for the last couple of weeks so things have been rather quiet, anyway,i popped in to have a chat with one of the other lads. i was told that it may be better to buy a set of oversized hot spots =.5mm or 20 thou. They would then machine them to the correct tight size, but to see if i could get them from Turner Engineering. I have since spoken to a lovely lady called Frieda who is VERY knowledgeable to say the least. She said,..oversized hotspots are not available but what can be done is to grease the one that has come out and tap it back in. She also stated that it's quite normal for one or more to fall out when the head is lifted as its only an interference fit. Also the quality of the last hotspots may have something to do with it. She said, if they can be lifted with a magnet then they are the cheap kind. The original type was apparently made of neumonic/mnumonic 80 (spelling) but these are not made anymore.However the type supplied by Turners are a very high quality. I gave all this information to the engineers who kind off agreed with what had been said but didn't sound utterly convinced, but anyway...a full set has been ordered and i'm now just waiting for them to be delivered. She also asked me if the top of the pistons were ok and could it be a combustion problem. I said the top of the pistons looked ok, but i guess we shall just have to see how things go when it's all put back together,....fingers crossed!!!!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 I’ve used Sheffield Engineering Services for a small job and I’m sure their opinion is valuable. However IMHO, you can trust Turners with complete confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 Peaklander Yes, they do seem to know their job, i've just got back after delivering my hot spots from Turners, and the first thing they did was to try picking one up with a magnet, not magnetic as Frieda stated. My old one's picked up straight away so obviously my last lot from britpart was cheapos. Just goes to show doesn't it. The britpart one's were £24 i believe for 4 with free delivery and vat included. The one's from Turners £86 with delivery and vat. Even Steve, who's doing the job, said, "These feel far better quality and a nicer finish to them, and, if anything, they appear a slightly tighter fit, should have no more problems with these" So that filled me with confidence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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