Boydie Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 On our way back from Lightning Ridge to have a look at my neighbors opal mine the alarm went off 22 K's north of Gilgandra - no turbo pressure, no oil pressure. I turned the engine off and coated onto the grass verge on the side of the road. From there we arranged for a tow into Gilgandra, not the best town in the west - they dont even have a taxi service ! I initially thought that maybe the turbo bearing(s) had blown but that wasn't the case, I disconnected the oil feed line to the oil cooler, pulled off the fuel solenoid power supply to stop the motor from running and turned the motor over for a good 45 seconds - no oil ! the level in the sump was on the mark so it wasn't due to lack of engine oil in the sump and I've been since advised that the inner "gear" on the oil pump have been known to crack in two resulting in zero oil flow --- has anyone heard of this before ? I'm secretly hoping its just the oil pick-up pipe that's come adrift but I wont know until Saturday after I drive there with a trailer to pick the Disco up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 What engine ? cos you haven't told us that bit of info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 300 Ralph. And yes there oil pumps are carp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 Yeah, Ralph, I tagged it in the index, 300Tdi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Ah, the tags aren't shown on mobile :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Ah I didn't see that tag, I normally ignore them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 Has anyone had this oil pump failure and if so what were the consequences ? I dropped the sump today, some bits of metal and a spring washer probably off a 10mm bolt the centre main and No 4 big end looked fine and I replaced the bearing caps, --- I'll start stripping down the front end of the motor tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Yep had it happen to me. New oil pump and big end shells sorted it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrycol Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Weren't you supposed to be on the CSR when this happened? I feel your pain - failures like this are a real pain = I always ask myself if I just fix it up so it is good enough and have worries after or spend heaps of time and effort and dollars to make sure it is right. Decisions, decisions. I hope you get it sorted soon. Cheers garry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 Ian is the front of the crank damaged. If so by how much. Mine went in 011 and it's still running Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted July 9, 2017 Author Share Posted July 9, 2017 Well its all pulled apart and it was the pump, the two "flats" on the inner wheel had completely been destroyed and I'm very thankful I had the crank nitrided, I've pulled No.4 bigend and the centre main and there doesn't appear to be any bearing damage, I'll put that down to the engine being shut down seconds after the oil pressure went to zero from 35 psi. As a precaution seeing as I have a spare I'm going to put a new Turbo cassette in as the bearing seems to be a bit worn. Garry, yes we were supposed to be leaving this week, Peter hasn't fully recovered from breaking his collar bone when he fell off his mountain bike -- he had to have a titanium plate installed and then had a second op when a screw came loose - (hard to imagine I know) - so thjat adventure will be put on hold until later in the year or if he puts it off further he will probably have to look for another shotgun as I wont be available. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrycol Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 In some respects it is better you had this issue now and not on the CSR - sounds like you are top of it and I hope it all goes well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 Sounds like a lucky escape. Probably not worth the postage but something like Nige's magnetic sump plugs could be a worthwhile investment to catch errant bits in situations like this, prevent secondary damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted July 10, 2017 Author Share Posted July 10, 2017 Okay, I took delivery of the new oil pump, a genuine LR part in a Green and White box (NOT in a Blue Bag!) and I made a point of measuring the ID of the pump driving "cog" - it was 0.85 mm larger than the OD of the crank !! I made a call to the local LR main dealership who had supplied said pump and they checked a couple that had in stock and a brand new crank - same result so its little wonder that failure occurs as the slop in the drive will mean that the four small lugs (not full flats to co-inside with the flats on the crank) will mean a constant hammering every time the motor starts ! why the internal profile of the driven cog isn't a inverse replica of the crank - with say +0.005 mm is beyond me! I've saved the oil pump and a mate will machine one on his CNC lathe for me- and he assures me it will be a slip-on fit. He recons that he will be able to duplicate the material by doing a couple of test drills on the original. I found one small drag/score on one of the big ends obvious due to lack of lubrication so while the sumps off I'll replace all the crank slipper bearings - at only $148.00 inc, GST for big-ends and mains its a worthwhile expense. I have a magnetic sump plug but with the fine mesh pick-up on the pump supply I dont think the pump failure was due to foreign objects being drawn into the pump, there were a few tiny score marks on the pump housing plate but not of a depth that you could catch your finger nail in, and they were easily lapped out on a whetstone I keep for that sole purpose. I fitted the magnetic plug after I found a couple of the original valve caps had disintegrated, I now use Turner Engineering and haven't had a valve cap failure since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 I didn't mean the mag plug would prevent the failure as by the sound of it the design is the problem... I just meant to catch the resulting detritus and prevent further damage, which by the sound of it you have pretty much escaped by catching it ASAP and switching off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted July 30, 2017 Author Share Posted July 30, 2017 Okay, hopefully the last word and advice to others who may follow in my sorry path. The crankshaft bolt MUST NEVER be applied with any form of locktite, ONLY copper based grease and it MUST be done up to the specifications which are 80 Nm AND then a further 90* degrees to stretch the bolt. The bolt and its washer apply pressure to the harmonic pulley which in turn presses on the crankshaft timing gear cog which in turn presses on, and holds in place the oil pump inner gear up against the step on the crankshaft. It is this pressure that holds it in place and prevents is from turning on the crankshaft, the four tiny lugs which locate it on the crankshaft flats are to locate it only, not hold it in position. By applying copper grease if you use the correct LR tool to retain the crankshaft pulley (easily fabricated by the way) removal/undoing of the bolt is relativity easy. Its also possible by cuttning away a small part of the fan cowl bottom to tightener the bolt in situe on the road if you feel its coming loose. According to LR the crank shaft bolt, like the cylinder head bolts should be replaced every 5 times its stretched. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 That last post is very useful information. I have never come across it before, but it sounds entirely logical and critical. I had thought that the pump fit was indicative of lowering quality by Gen Parts - more and more is being manufactured in India, and much of it is such rubbish standard that Britpart would be better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 Okay as I read the LR service documents regarding oil pump failures, the flats on the crank shaft and the corresponding nibs on the inside of the oil pump inner cog are simply there to locate the cog to the outer cog, from then they are in sync.the inner cog has a raised step on it that abuts the timing gear cog, this cog in turn is pressed up against the crank shaft pulley. The crank shaft bolt tension on these three components is crucial to their location and correct operation. I should have realized this three years back when because of a loose crank bolt the pulley came loose and destroyed the Woodruf keyways and crankshaft, its a shame that LR do not make a greater issue of this torque requirement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 The replacement of the crank bolt after being torqued 5 times, is news to me, thanks for posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Sabre said: The replacement of the crank bolt after being torqued 5 times, is news to me, thanks for posting In reality this amounts to the timing belt being replaced five times (500,000 kilometers) or 300,000 miles so under normal circumstances half the normal life of the engine, so its probably not a huge issue, but it should, like the head bolts, be better advised. Other than a possible camshaft or crankshaft oil seal leaking I'm not able to think of any other reason that you would remove the sodding bolt. However if as I did you make up/fabricate a Land Rover Tool LRT-12-080 it makes removing it and torquing the bolt up again a breeze. All you need is a 2" BSP black iron socket cut and a piece of 10mm plate say 100mm x 500mm and an oxy torch (I used a plasma cutter to cut the shape of mine) and a good stand drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 On 8/3/2017 at 2:15 AM, Boydie said: In reality this amounts to the timing belt being replaced five times (500,000 kilometers) or 300,000 miles so under normal circumstances half the normal life of the engine, so its probably not a huge issue, but it should, like the head bolts, be better advised. Other than a possible camshaft or crankshaft oil seal leaking I'm not able to think of any other reason that you would remove the sodding bolt. However if as I did you make up/fabricate a Land Rover Tool LRT-12-080 it makes removing it and torquing the bolt up again a breeze. All you need is a 2" BSP black iron socket cut and a piece of 10mm plate say 100mm x 500mm and an oxy torch (I used a plasma cutter to cut the shape of mine) and a good stand drill. When the 300TDi's had the early belt failures, the maintenance frequency on the cambelts were reduced to 60 000km (about 35 000 miles). I replace the belt in my Disco every 80 000km (50 000 miles), and every time I remove a brand new belt, so the 100 000 mark is definately do-able in our high dust climate I do have a crank-locking tool which I use for removing the crank bolt Incidentally, how do you torque that bolt the last 90 degrees ? I stick a piece of paper, marked with the appropriate 90 degree marks on it to the crank pulley. But, due to the lack of space, lining up the marks from above is difficult Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Maybe I should mention that I do have an angle dial, but it has a half-inch drive, and I never trusted that small drive to handle the 90 degrees turn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boydie Posted September 24, 2017 Author Share Posted September 24, 2017 Sabre, Sorry for the tardy reply, I'm just back from a 39 day tour of the central deserts. I had a tool made to hold the crank pulley ( I turned the crank so that the extension pipe slipped over the tool handle was hard up against the chassis ) and then had no trouble using a 30" long 1/2" breaker bar with an 1/2" drive angle dial with no problems from the underside of the car - which was off the ground on chassis stands to enable me additional space to drop the sump easily. Even so with the breaker bar at around 15* to horizontal it wasnt to hard to guestimate the 90* mark, I dont think its essential to get it exactly 90* - just near enough to stretch the bolt and ensure compression of the pulley, timing belt cog and oil pump drive up against the step on the crankshaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Thanks Boydie, I will try the half-inch drive next time then. (Up to now I have used 3/4 drive) I have a service pit at home, so space below is not a problem. I can rest the crank locking tool on the ground; I have a rather long extension pipe that fits over it I hope you had a good trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Chick Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 Hi, I'm not a mechanic, and I've only owned a disco 4 for 12 months. Bought it from a dealer who abought from Highway patrol with 200000 miles on the clock. The problems I’ve just read above happened to my car. Evidently the oil pump failed and if it wasn’t for needing new cam belts I wouldn’t have realised the internal damage to the engine. After spending £5000 to replace belts and repair everything it’s still blowing white/grey smoke under heavy acceleration and there is a rough/rattle at start-up. Not sure what I should do next apart from sell it! Any thoughts gratefully received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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