smoky brakes, rear axle revision?

[xychix]

After over 1,5 years due to some chassis repairs (whilst in the middle of building a house) I drove ~10 km's only to discover (and freak out) that my rear drums where smoking like hell but the brakes didn't really lock up....

getting home and flushing it with water I decided to remove one drum only to find gunk (axle oil??) in there. Had the same issue on the front which still isn't properly solved, I'd now rather do a good restore on these rear seals to ensure that it doens't keep coming back over and over.

I was looking at getting this for both sides:

http://www.paddockspares.com/rtc3534-hub-bearing-kit.html
and than order an extra (better quality seal) RTC3510 as my britpart seal in the front is leaky from the start.

I'll have to order this on forehand as ordering stuff to France (in the middle of nowhere) usually ends up in a disaster (Read: the package always arrives the day after I leave back to holland and we have no neighbours)

Am I missing anything? I'd rather order a part or 2 to many than miss one!

===

my own additions:

oil I'll get locally

might replace the axle drainplug as well.

Edited August 17, 2017 by xychix

[rtbarton]

Check the breathers are clear too.  Better still, fit extended breathers and do away with that silly ball valve.

[xychix]

couln't find extended breathers for sale. Are they always DIY or do they exists as package?

[rtbarton]

Sometimes called wading kits.

http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/product_detail.php?prod=TF160&grp=371

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fits-Land-Rover-axle-breather-wading-kit-4-1-blue-/132275351198?hash=item1ecc39ae9e:g:9-IAAOSwFJBZWXfG

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Axle-Breather-Kit-straight-connectors-Free-UK-P-P-REDUCED-PRICE-/222593797362?hash=item33d39fccf2:g:Y~QAAOSw42JWDnq7

They can be made out of standard pneumatic components, the thread in the axle is BSP (1/8 I think, open to correction)

[rtbarton]

If you're going to fit new oil seals, check the condition of the stub axle where the oil seal runs on, if this is worn or scored it could still leak.

[xychix]

38 minutes ago, rtbarton said:

If you're going to fit new oil seals, check the condition of the stub axle where the oil seal runs on, if this is worn or scored it could still leak.

Will inspect that on forehand. and will check what a stub axle costs as well. (assuming such a groove isn't repairable and replacing stub is preferred??)

Is that an easy swap?

It appears there are quite a few different ones.
I'm having a LWB S3 <1980 rear axle (will double check).... err will double check. It might be that the pre 1980 and post 1980 only goes for SWB as LWB is supposed to have 24spline Salisbury?

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by xychix

[Arjan]

Goedes Ochtend,

Sounds as you face an axle rebuild.

Why not ask the suppliers in Holland for all the bits and return what you didn't need ?

Will make for an easier rebuild and less transport costs..

Succes !

[rtbarton]

IIRC some of the stub axles had a replaceable collar for the oil seal.

If not you may be able to reposition the oilseal slightly so it runs on a fresh bit of metal.

Don't forget to lubricate the seal before you fit the hub.

Edited August 17, 2017 by rtbarton

[Bowie69]

There is always Speedisleeves, if you can get one in that size.

[rtbarton]

^^ Good thinking, Batman

[Snagger]

Britpart seals are an oxymoron - even the big sponsored rebuilds they do for the magazines in their own workshop with their own staff and parts have puddles under every seal in the edition following and axle or transmission overhaul.  Their bearings are usually made of toffee, too.

Do yourself a favour and get the Gen Parts wheel bearing kits - they're very good value and should come with Timken bearings and Angus seals.

And yes, the seal land can be a problem that a replacement collar (old stub axles with the two different sized bearings) or speedysleeve (new one-piece stub for two identical bearings post 1980) will help.

[xychix]

After digging in and opening up 1 side...

This is what i've red:
- The whole before or after 1980 thing is only for the short wheel base not for the 109.

This is what I've found:
- It's a 24 spline shaft
- there are 2 (good looking) timken bearings inside, BUT they both have another number on them.  The most inner one reads Timken 359-S, the other reads Timken 11169.

The seal seemed to have created a miniature grind in the collar, I wouldn't be supprised if the collar can be replaced..... by the looks of it. However placing the seal slightly more inward (or picking a genuine leather seal) might solve my issue as well.

All seems good, the only confusing is the mixing numbers on the bearings leaving my in doubt what bearings / seals to buy.

 

[Snagger]

Well, the 1980 thing did affect 109s too.  The Salisbury shafts were all 24 spline at the diff end, and I think at the hub too, but they had the same small inner and large outer bearing pre-1980 as other axles, and went to equal sized bearings and fixed seal land, plus oil catcher rings and drains post 1980.  The stub axles differ in more than just the older version having a replaceable seal land - the newer type also have a slot machined on the front of the flange to align with the oil drain hole in the brake back plate and they have a continuous diameter all the way to the beginning of the seal land, where the older type have a step before the seal land that the wider diameter inner bearing sits on.

Apart from the brakes, I don't think there was any difference between 88 and 109 front axles of either time period.

If you have the later type with equal sized bearings, then a Defender wheel bearing kit will do the job, except for lacking an o-ring for the centre cone and having a five bolted gasket for the drive flange instead of six.

For the price, get a Gen Parts kit, not pattern.  If you have to get pattern, get Bearmach.  The Paddock kit in your link will be Britpart - the seal will leak striaght away, and you'll be luck to get 15,000km from the bearings.

[xychix]

Hi Snagger thanks for the details. 

I'm looking at the back axle. biggest chance mine is pre 1980 109 SIII as it was placed on the road in 1980.

I'll compare the bearings tomorrow, guess thats the biggest giveaway? It seems to be I'd be able to grind in and break the collar the seal runs on and replace that. That would already be a give away for a pre 1980 rear axle.

I'd assume the difference is clearly to the eye? or is it a barely visible difference in the bearings? 

[Snagger]

Have a look for a circular drain hole in the brake back plates directly below the axle tube flange, about 2mm diameter.  If the holes are present, you ave later axles, if there are no holes, the axles are earlier.

[xychix]

No drain hole and clearly 2 different bearings.

So 24 spline, pre 1980 axle. Time to gather part numbers in order not to get a paddocks kit but seperate branded items.

The pre 1980 paddocks kit has:

1x RTC3416 Bearing << might be the correct number to find a timken one
1x RTC3426 Bearing<< might be the correct number to find a timken one
1x RTC3515 Felt Seal<< didn't find this when demounting stuff. guess I won't need one.
1x RTC3510 Hub Seal << might be the correct number to find a proper one
1x 231505 Hub Gasket. << might be the correct number to find a  proper one

---

small items like a hub cap etc will be included in the end.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by xychix

[xychix]

On 8/22/2017 at 10:53 AM, Snagger said:

For the price, get a Gen Parts kit, not pattern.  If you have to get pattern, get Bearmach.  The Paddock kit in your link will be Britpart - the seal will leak striaght away, and you'll be luck to get 15,000km from the bearings.

Just did a major discovery  adding a G behind the partnumber gets me a bit more expensive "Genuine" kit

RTC3534G

http://www.paddockspares.com/hub-bearing-kit.html

I assume that's the one then

The bearrings and seal will hopefully be the correct ones. The felt isn't used and the old clip to hold that shaft in place can be reused (didn't break that) 

Edited August 26, 2017 by xychix

[Snagger]

There have been several discussions on the matter, and numerous members have orders and received parts with a G suffix still wrapped in Britpart packaging.  I think it was meant to indicate OEM quality, not necessarily OEM supply, and of course we're expected to take Britpart's word that these parts have passed closer scrutiny; the supplier who sells brake hoses which are solid or don't have the fittings swaged on the ends of he hose, or hydraulic cylinders full of swarf.  I'll wager that if you do buy those G suffix kits from Paddock, they will be Britpart with unbranded bearings.

[xychix]

Snagger, what/where would you advice me to buy then?  (and thanks for thinking along this far for, what might seem,  minor parts!)

Any UK webshop that will deliver to the Netherlands that sells proper parts?

http://www.paddockspares.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=RTC3510G

It appears Paddocks had Corteco or OEM (leather) seals. The timken bearings on both sides look niceand might be reused (I'm in doubt about that as I don't know their history, no signs of damage / wear hovever).

 

I'm almost sure my left rear weel had a RTC3511 fitted no wonder that leaked. the inner ring was way wider and a totally different seal compared to the other end. Also it wasn;t seated as nice. 

[AV8R]

I've had good service and genuine parts from John Craddock's.

https://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/series/series-3/

[Snagger]

13 hours ago, AV8R said:

I've had good service and genuine parts from John Craddock's.

https://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/series/series-3/

You're privileged , then!  They are slow, lie about stock and keep customers waiting weeks, are overpriced and mostly sell the same tat as Paddock.

xychix, I recommend Genuine Parts kits, or failing that, Bearmach.  An alternative is to find a local bearings supplier and buy Timken, SKF or NSK bearings individually..  The original bearings will have numbers etched in the races to identify their spec.  The supplier should be able to supply seals, too, and you Ideally want Angus or Corteco, but any decent quality manufacturer will do.  The Britpart components will be unbranded, and that is a very bad sign about quality.

As usual, I'd recommend Dunsfold Land Rover as a supplier.

[Jon W]

I recommend rimmerbros for parts, really good website too. Choice of pattern, Oem or genuine

i am currently having trouble identifying which stub axle I need, I have a series 2 with military axles (reinforced casings) of unknown age.

inner bearing and outer bearing are different sizes. Only numbers I can find are on oil seal,  In21631 Gaco 64 however these are seals I put on previously 

anyone help me to find out what stub axle I need.

 

not sure what I have done to the font on this.

 

thanks in advance 

Jon