Series swb 5 Speed Conversion - Help

[Bandog]

On 06/10/2017 at 12:14 AM, twodoorgaz said:

Bandog - re: the 1mm clearance - is this on a SII/IIA chassis or a SIII? I realise there's a difference in the clutches and the gearbox cossmember webbing between the two.

A pic of the potential clash would be massive useful.

 

I've collected the ashcroft kit, a stumpy R380 and a skinny front prop ready to do the conversion but would love to see where the potential clash lies.

 

Thank you.

 

I had previously marked out the area in red marker, as you can see.

I would myself had removed, if I had have known before assembly. Hope this helps, cheers.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Bandog
nononona

[ejparrott]

On 10/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, Bandog said:

Also worth remembering is the same cross member is smack bang where your flywheel housing is, so unless you drill a big hole, or other mod, you will not be able to get the flywheel locking tool/wading plug in for love or money when the vehicle is built. (cam belt job)

 

I am modifying my chassis by fitting a Stage 1 V8 crossmember here instead.  It's removable, but it's also further back, in line with the bulkhead outriggers

[Cliffordtdi]

On 10/6/2017 at 5:44 PM, twodoorgaz said:

Yes - also fitted to the RRC of the same vintage - they come up on ebay quite often, usually about £30-£40.

This is the search term I had saved while waiting for a cheap one (paste into eBay and scan through till you see one that looks right): 

(disco,discovery,rrc,rangerover,range) (prop,propshaft) -td5 -tdi -tdv6 -2.7 -sport -p38 -l322 -l405

There is one listed, but its very expensive and in the Netherlands:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Range-Rover-Classic-propshaft-with-catalyst-/311956754784?hash=item48a2125160:g:O3cAAOSwC6dZs-vp

I've just bought one for £30, though will need to have it extended (stumpy R380 with bell housing face in same position as 4-speed, series transfer box moved back 4" to compensate for longer box - just having Richards weld on a 2nd set of bolt-up xrossmember brackets 4" back without touching/cutting the rest of the chassis).

Seen a few in this configuration where the standard prop cleared the gearbox crossmember - even on parabolics. But it was noticeably tighter than stock, so a skinny prop should return the clearance to an acceptable level.

 

 

Many thanks twodoorgaz

[Cliffordtdi]

When using the standard engine position, an LT77 and an LT230, does anyone know the front propshaft length? And does anyone know the length of a Disco 1 V8 with cat (skinny Prop) length? I'm trying to develop a kit which enables the conversion and lets you run a standard chassis. Any ideas are welcome....

[ejparrott]

I had a front prop custom made, can't remember the length but I can go and measure it.  Skinny one

[Cliffordtdi]

On 09/02/2018 at 9:40 AM, ejparrott said:

I had a front prop custom made, can't remember the length but I can go and measure it.  Skinny one

 

I'd appreciate it if you don't mind.

[abeljt]

Guys, is the Ashcroft kit the only way to convert the LT230 to part time 4WD? 

[Jon White]

Yes, although imho it’s pointless. I’ve run full time 4wd for the last ten years now.....

[Anderzander]

3 hours ago, Jon White said:

Yes, although imho it’s pointless. I’ve run full time 4wd for the last ten years now.....

I must admit, with it having a centre diff, I wondered what the benefit was...

[AV8R]

Ashcroft does not make the part-time kit, they only sell them. The parts are being made by AVM in Brasil.

If you want to mount it in a Series you may ask for only the actual parts that will go into the center diff as you most likely won't need the the freewheeling hubs for a Defender. Parts in the diff will be a frontoutputshaft needle bearing (most left in picture), the "counter spider"gear (second) and the shims (third) to reduce us much free play as possible.

 

Why go 2/4WD ? Because Series where designed for it. I even converted the single stick operation to Series style red and yellow knobs. Pulling the red knob to the rear is low range, pushing the yellow knob down connects the front outputshaft.

[lo-fi]

15 hours ago, Anderzander said:

must admit, with it having a centre diff, I wondered what the benefit was...

Not having it feel like a series does in 4wd on tarmac when turning tighter corners. I thought it was horrible and quickly converted to part time using the kit above. I guess it depends what you're happy with or using it for, though. 

[Anderzander]

I must be misunderstanding ... but I though with an LT230 you wouldn’t have had that unless difflock was on? 

[AV8R]

34 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

I must be misunderstanding ... but I though with an LT230 you wouldn’t have had that unless difflock was on? 

In tight corners, what you notice in 4 WD is the rotation of the U-joints in the swivel housings. You can feel the steering wheel wobbling with each half revolution of the front halfshaft. With old time 2/4WD on tarmac you just set the free wheeling hubs to "free" and the wobbling is gone. LT230's are made for front axles with CV joints, the Constant Velocity eliminates the wobbling.

When the LT95 was introduced into the Stage 1, LR adopted the CV joints for the very same reasons (driver comfort being one of them) as they did when they designed the  Range Rover.

[Anderzander]

Ahhh !  Thank you 😊 

[BigJ]

Does fitting the LT77 with a 2.25 engine allow the standard series tunnel to be retained? Is the gear lever in the same position?

[FridgeFreezer]

TBH you could just weld the rear output gear into the LT230 diff housing and press a bearing or bushing into the front to support the shaft.

[AV8R]

On 18-2-2018 at 2:47 PM, BigJ said:

Does fitting the LT77 with a 2.25 engine allow the standard series tunnel to be retained? Is the gear lever in the same position?

The LT77 is a bit taller and wider than the Series box. The gear lever is in about the same position. The turret with the 3-4 bias springs however make it quite a bit larger than the Series lever. I installed a 90/110 LT77 tunnel so it still has the boxy looks of a Series . . . . . sort off.

[ejparrott]

On 18/02/2018 at 1:47 PM, BigJ said:

Does fitting the LT77 with a 2.25 engine allow the standard series tunnel to be retained? Is the gear lever in the same position?

The lever is slightly further back if you maintain the normal Series engine mount position, but the LT77 does fit under the Series Transmission tunnel if you open the hole out rewards, that's all.  If you're using an LT230 as well, which I highly recommend, then remove the Difflock+HiLo shifter and convert to Series levers, it's not difficult

[BigJ]

9 hours ago, ejparrott said:

The lever is slightly further back if you maintain the normal Series engine mount position, but the LT77 does fit under the Series Transmission tunnel if you open the hole out rewards, that's all.  If you're using an LT230 as well, which I highly recommend, then remove the Difflock+HiLo shifter and convert to Series levers, it's not difficult

Cheers. So am I right in understanding that to fit an LT77 gearbox and LT230transfer box into an 88 S3 I need the shorter bell housing off a Defender as opposed to the longer RRC or DIsco one?

If my 2.25 stays in the original position then the rear prop will need to be shortened slightly to account for the longer box but it will still work okay even at the increased angle? Will the LT77 sit on the original Series gearbox mounts or are mods required? If so what is the best way forward with this?

For the front prop I can use a RRC auto with the thinner shaft to clear the crossmember but will need to fit a kit to modify the transfer box to selectable 2/4wd?

I can either elongate the Series tunnel to match that of the Defender cutout and trim it with Defender gaiters or alter the linkage to reuse the Series levers although the high range will need to be manually pulled to regain 2wd rather than being sprung with the red lever?

Althernatively I can fit a Defender tunnel, are these a straight swap (ish)? Will it line up with the floor, bulkhead and seat box panels?

Finally the LT77 has a handbrake cable so how does that interface with the Series handbrake lever?

Sorry for all the obvious questions but I’m trying to weight up the pros and cons of this conversion against a high ratio transfer case upgrade to the standard box.

Edited February 26, 2018 by BigJ

[lo-fi]

2 hours ago, BigJ said:

So am I right in understanding that to fit an LT77 gearbox and LT230transfer box into an 88 S3 I need the shorter bell housing off a Defender as opposed to the longer RRC or DIsco one?

Yes. And even so, the rear prop will be pretty short. You may also run into issues with clearance between the mid crossmember and the hand brake drum, meaning its impossible to remove to service without taking the transfer box out, which in itself is a tricky proposition with space being so tight. 

2 hours ago, BigJ said:

If my 2.25 stays in the original position then the rear prop will need to be shortened slightly to account for the longer box but it will still work okay even at the increased angle? Will the LT77 sit on the original Series gearbox mounts or are mods required? If so what is the best way forward with this?

Literally nothing bolts up. You'll end up having to fabricate plates to pick up the series mounts. 

2 hours ago, BigJ said:

For the front prop I can use a RRC auto with the thinner shaft to clear the crossmember but will need to fit a kit to modify the transfer box to selectable 2/4wd?

Unless you're happy running permanent 4wd with series UJ's, yes. 

2 hours ago, BigJ said:

can either elongate the Series tunnel to match that of the Defender cutout and trim it with Defender gaiters or alter the linkage to reuse the Series levers although the high range will need to be manually pulled to regain 2wd rather than being sprung with the red lever?

No, it's independent either way on an LT230

2 hours ago, BigJ said:

Finally the LT77 has a handbrake cable so how does that interface with the Series handbrake lever?

The hand brake is on the LT230, which  comes in cable operated or rod op like  the series. I'm afraid I can't remember which comes in what vehicle. The rod can be made to work, as could the cable, but both need a bit of head scratching. 

Also think about gear ratios. Commonly available 1.22 transfer boxes are lower than the series 1.15, negating the benefit somewhat. 1.4 doesn't work well at all on 4.7 diffs if you want to go over 50.  You can change diffs for 3.54, but then you've borked your low ratio too and added even more work. 

Everyone I've seen do this has taken their own path, be it making mounts to pick up existing series positions or adding crossmembers from existing vehicles, custom props vs scalloping bellhousing crossmembers, moving the engine forwards or not, using defender style high/low or making linkages to retain series levers, modifying or building custom tunnel... The list goes on. There are a lot of design decisions involved, and quite a bit of engineering if you want to do it well, rather than an smash it in, bodge as you go and hope for the best.

A mate of mine bought an 88 S3 with 200tdi and LT77 with LT230, which was the most horrific bodge I've ever seen. It worked, but servicing it was just plain awful, and the rear prop at a mere 8 or 10 inches ate UJ's (and a diff pinion bearing) like they were going out of fashion. He sold it on quite quickly, or I'd have ripped it apart and started again. 

Hope that answers a few questions, anyway 

[BigJ]

Thanks for a comprehensive answer. I think the high ratio transfer box route will probably be best for me then as I don’t want to be modifying a new galv chassis and have limited fabrication facilities available. The 5th gear would have been nice for road use but I can live without it.

[Gazzar]

20 hours ago, ejparrott said:

The lever is slightly further back if you maintain the normal Series engine mount position, but the LT77 does fit under the Series Transmission tunnel if you open the hole out rewards, that's all.  If you're using an LT230 as well, which I highly recommend, then remove the Difflock+HiLo shifter and convert to Series levers, it's not difficult

Hi EJ,

Can you do this and retain permanent lt230 style 4x4?

G.

[ejparrott]

3 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Hi EJ,

Can you do this and retain permanent lt230 style 4x4?

G.

Yes, that's how my 109 is set up.  I have bought a part time 4WD kit but I've not got around to fitting it.  The red lever still gives me HiLo, the yellow is down for difflock and up for open.  Being an LT230 both are of course 4WD, although as I still haven't changed my front diff, I'm permanently in difflock and 2WD.

 

@BigJ on my 109 I built custom mounts to support the LT77 and LT230 on the original Series crossmember.  My 88 is about to get a rebuild and will also be going LT77/LT230, but I'm in two minds whether to go the same way..  Before my chassis goes for galvenizing I am going to drill and tube the chassis so that I have the option to use the original Defender type mounts if I want to.  The Defender tunnel is not a straight fit.  IT doesn't fit the seatbox, and it doesn't fit the bulkhead either.  I tried it with my 109 originally, then set out to prove the doubters wrong and put the Series tunnel back.  Literally the only thing I've done is cut a new hole in the top 4" further back or whatever it is.  The handbrake on that is the original early style Defender handbrake, with the external cable bracket removed, and special linkages made to connect it up to the Series handbrake.  I've got an X-Eng handbrake kit for it, and I'm going to be converting it to use a cable and a Disco handbrake, long line of modifications to that story.  My 88 I'm going to also swap to a disc handbrake, my intention is to retain the Series handbrake lever, but I'm going to fabricate a bracket and have that cable operated.

[Gazzar]

Thanks EJ,

That's good to know, useful for my next project, scheduled for 2020!

G.

[AV8R]

22 hours ago, BigJ said:

Finally the LT77 has a handbrake cable so how does that interface with the Series handbrake lever?

Hand brake on the LT230 is cable operated. The hand brake lever on my 88" IIa is rebuilt to retain the1963 look on the cabin side and work the cable underneath. Mind you, mine is a LH drive so yours will likely look different. It does take some fiddling to make it work properly but it can be done.

Edited February 27, 2018 by AV8R