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Cornish Rattler

Best Heater in a series

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Hi guys

My 1970 2a swb ( 200tdi ) restoration has the flat type heater and Ive never run a series with a flat type heater before and just wondered which of the three heaters is best 

1, 2a round type.

2, 2a flat type.

3, S3 type. 

What do you think 

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My series 2A swb has the flat type and my mate's series 3 swb has the series 3 type heater and this is what we found out after we compared the two.

The series 2A heater seems to blow warmer around the feet area of the driver and passenger side ( equally ) Because it's situated in the middle of driver / passenger.

His series 3 blows down onto the upper part of the legs ( knees ) and lower leg ( shins ) BUT is much much cooler by the time it reaches his feet area.It must also have a cool air supply from the outer N/S wing. ... The flat series 2A RECIRCULATES the warm air from inside the vehicle as the landy warms up.

Also....and this has made a MASSIVE improvement,  I  also fitted a couple of ( T ) pieces to the hot water pipes in the engine bay and routed them to the rear AND  fitted a couple of 24v bus heaters, running on 12v and fitted them to the rear bulkhead behind the seats where the spare wheel is sometimes fitted. When my children were younger, they often asked me to turn the rear heaters off as it was getting too warm for them, AND this is in winter with a canvas roof fitted!!!!.

The bus heaters cost me £20 quid from a bus scrap yard in Barnsley. That was 18 years ago and they still work perfectly.

With the front and rear heaters working together,, the landy gets warmed up in no time and keeps recirculating the warm air getting warmer and warmer until i have to turn them off for a while.

Also, but don't quote me on this, i'm not sure if the series 3 heating system can be fitted to the series 2A BUT I'M SURE someone here can answer that one for you.

Hope this helps mate.

Dave.

 

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16 minutes ago, skirky dave said:

My series 2A swb has the flat type and my mate's series 3 swb has the series 3 type heater and this is what we found out after we compared the two.

The series 2A heater seems to blow warmer around the feet area of the driver and passenger side ( equally ) Because it's situated in the middle of driver / passenger.

His series 3 blows down onto the upper part of the legs ( knees ) and lower leg ( shins ) BUT is much much cooler by the time it reaches his feet area.It must also have a cool air supply from the outer N/S wing. ... The flat series 2A RECIRCULATES the warm air from inside the vehicle as the landy warms up.

Also....and this has made a MASSIVE improvement,  I  also fitted a couple of ( T ) pieces to the hot water pipes in the engine bay and routed them to the rear AND  fitted a couple of 24v bus heaters, running on 12v and fitted them to the rear bulkhead behind the seats where the spare wheel is sometimes fitted. When my children were younger, they often asked me to turn the rear heaters off as it was getting too warm for them, AND this is in winter with a canvas roof fitted!!!!.

The bus heaters cost me £20 quid from a bus scrap yard in Barnsley. That was 18 years ago and they still work perfectly.

With the front and rear heaters working together,, the landy gets warmed up in no time and keeps recirculating the warm air getting warmer and warmer until i have to turn them off for a while.

Also, but don't quote me on this, i'm not sure if the series 3 heating system can be fitted to the series 2A BUT I'M SURE someone here can answer that one for you.

Hope this helps mate.

Dave.

 

Thanks Dave that sounds great, yeah I did think about the S3 heater but you need a big square hole in the bulkhead so the heater can blow the warm air through also been looking at bulkheads and set my heart on a late S2a bulkhead as mine should be (1970 ) but I have seen some that have a long cut out above where the flat heater should fit and wondered what it's for as I have noticed not all late bulkheads have this but all seem to use the flat heater as my old bulkhead has been heavily messed with by PO I've no idea if mine should have one.

Edited by Cornish Rattler

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There is nothing in the slightest wrong with the original series 3 heater matrix and box assembly!

If only a little bit on the small side, the heat output is respectable... however, these vehicles are prone to scale and rust blocking up the matrix.

The aluminium britpart/bearmach replacements are more efficient than the old brass.

In a vehicle with a healthy cooling system in a 200tdi for example, is hot enough to cook food wrapped in foil on the dash (88degrees, one of my favorite old tricks in the old smiley faced transit)

The problems with series heating systems are many fold, which worsens things somewhat.

1. Poor insulation.

2. Draughts.

3. Blocked matrix.

4. Poor thermostat.

5. Pathetic heater blower.

I have modified an early disco 1 air filter, and placed a 180w circular fan in it off one of my old subaru brat utes, and it would suck start a jumbo jet! Two speed settings as per series 3 switch provided by a scrap radiator and fan resistor (picked up from the side of the road, fell off a gipsy scrap hawkers transit!)

All bespoke made from recycled scrap, and I even put a cheap k&n copy  filter in there to stop unwanted dust and leaves etc blowing in.

All relay operated, the heater is phenominal. Its about time some aftermarket guys came up with a system that can be mounted in the original place, with more poke. But other options are available, if you have the time, money and inclination. Cheers, photos coming soon regards this.

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Hi Graham,

Mmmm, not sure why there is a long hole cut out but there again i'm not an expert on these. Someone may have fitted a v8 in the past which needs a lot of cutting to the bulkhead,apart from that , i'm not too sure mate as to why there is a long hole there.

Mine has two holes  only, that's for the copper heater pipes to slide through the bulkhead. The heater is then secured with 2 small nuts and bolts( on top of the heater)   to the internal bulkhead,.. and 2 self tappers to fasten the lower part of the heater to the lower part of bulkhead. EASY!!.

iN MY OPINION the series 2A bulkhead is prefered, even my mate prefers mine to his!!!!.

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Just to be contrary, the best one is a diesel-fired Eberspacher or Webasto, especially given how long 200TDi's take to warm up.

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Bandog,

Eh up,  Yep, i've heard of many different type of installations to improve the series heater problem, and if you've managed to find one that works for you , then that's all that matters, great.

But not all of us are handy with electrics/ relays etc etc especially ME!!. 

Maybe Graham is just trying to keep things simple, i don't know, But that's the way i did it.

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Fridgefreezer,

Mmm oh yes.... but a little out of my price band,   ( like by a long way ) and i certainly wouldn't know where to start with fitting one of those baby's.

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It really depends on how original etc. you want to keep the vehicle - and budget..

We have Canadian heaters in the vehicles and they make for hot vehicles, even in minus 20 C.

However, it does mean serious mods to the bulkhead or some very, very clever building.

The Webasto is a fine route - very efficient and direct heat from the start.

 

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You can pick up an Eberspacher for £100 - £150, not loads more than decent OE heater bits really... I paid a bit more for my petrol ones as they're rarer.

Also not terribly hard to wire - they need a good solid +12v and GND, two wires to the little fuel pump, and then usually just have a harness to plug the control knob into.

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2 hours ago, skirky dave said:

Bandog,

Eh up,  Yep, i've heard of many different type of installations to improve the series heater problem, and if you've managed to find one that works for you , then that's all that matters, great.

But not all of us are handy with electrics/ relays etc etc especially ME!!. 

Maybe Graham is just trying to keep things simple, i don't know, But that's the way i did it.

Yeah I really want to keep the heater side of things std as I know with an S3 heater probably would be the best but probably to much work to make fit, as said mines the flat type heater but the vehicle when I bought it wasn't road worthy so couldn't test it and was connected to a 2.25p engine which whilst doing the 2a rebuild I have replaced with a 200tdi engine. 

My last S2a I rebuilt with a 200tdi in was an older model 1961 with the round type heater fitted and with the 200in the heater was a lot better but with this one having the flat type heater in and positioned in the centre I was hoping it would be warmer but if not I mite look into fitting a round type heater in the back and switched seperatly.

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The flat heater has the higher rating (than the earlier circular heater), but no heater works well if it doesn't receive a good supply of hot coolant, and is not itself bunged up with sludge.

The heater element input should be connected towards the rear of the cylinder head, between cylinders 3 and 4.
The heater element return should be connected to the section of the bypass casting closest to where the radiator bottom hose is connected to the water pump inlet.

Note that the bypass pipe is in parallel with the heater element, as the heater was an optional (extra) fitment there had to be an effective bypass when the heater was absent, or when the heater was present but the water valve closed.
It follows that restricting the flow through the bypass results in more flow through the heater.
Deleting the water valve from the circuit, using a pipe spigot instead, deletes a restrictive element in the coolant flow through the heater and ensures the heater is always available as the bypass circuit. Yes, the heater is aways 'on', but shutting off the air flow stops heat to the feet, and hot air that reaches the windscreen is fairly easily dealt with. (I am assuming UK driving conditions).

You can spend time and money on alternatives, some may be better than even a properly working standard heater installation.
I'd suggest the first step is to get a properly working standard heater installation.
If this proves insufficient then do the almost hidden, very cheap and quick modifications already mentioned.
If this proves insufficient then spend more time and money on an alternative.

In the end it can depend on what floats your boat higher in the water, a standard installation that works, or developing something new, although I will repeat my earlier points, no heater works well if it doesn't receive a good supply of hot coolant, and is not itself bunged up with sludge, so do the appropriate installation checks and maintenance before anything else.

Regards.

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6 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Just to be contrary, the best one is a diesel-fired Eberspacher or Webasto, especially given how long 200TDi's take to warm up.

the 200 tdi takes no time at all to heat up when BOTH thermostats are working correctly. This is a 200 tdi myth about them being cold running. If they are running cold there's something a miss somewhere!

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Mr. Bandog has a point... Both the 200 & 300 start generating heat within 2-3 minutes from start up..

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I’m with fridge on this one. The original series 3 heater was pathetic. I now have a defender heater and it’s still pretty pathetic. The heat output is ok, but the blower output, by the t8me it gets up to the screen demise vents is woeful. 

I have a mikuni version of an eberspacher - it’s excellent, and cost me less than  £100 - gives I stand heat that is toasty warm in a hardtop series with no insulation in double digit minus temperatures. 

I find that the 200tdi in mine never warms up fully when it’s really cold - after 30miles the radiator is still stone cold, and the temp gauge is below normal (and yes my thermostat is fine).

jon

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5 hours ago, Jon White said:

I’m with fridge on this one. The original series 3 heater was pathetic. I now have a defender heater and it’s still pretty pathetic. The heat output is ok, but the blower output, by the t8me it gets up to the screen demise vents is woeful. 

I have a mikuni version of an eberspacher - it’s excellent, and cost me less than  £100 - gives I stand heat that is toasty warm in a hardtop series with no insulation in double digit minus temperatures. 

I find that the 200tdi in mine never warms up fully when it’s really cold - after 30miles the radiator is still stone cold, and the temp gauge is below normal (and yes my thermostat is fine).

jon

Cheers guys

Im not there yet but when I get to looking at the heater I will have a good look at it and depending what it's like I will fit it and see how it is once it's all running and depending on how good it is I will fit a round type heater in the back :)

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On 29/09/2017 at 7:18 PM, Bandog said:

the 200 tdi takes no time at all to heat up when BOTH thermostats are working correctly. This is a 200 tdi myth about them being cold running. If they are running cold there's something a miss somewhere!

I take that to mean the coolant thermostat at the front of the head and the oil thermostat in the filter housing.  I replaced both of mine, but it still takes a much longer time to warm up than my 300, despite the 200 having an electric fan and the 300 its viscous unit.  I put it don to the 200 sitting in a large and unobstructed bay in the 109 while the 300 was in the RR's more congested bay, but it could be a quirk of the engines.  I don't know why 200s should generally warm slower than 300s, or if that's what Fridge meant to imply.

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4 minutes ago, Snagger said:

I take that to mean the coolant thermostat at the front of the head and the oil thermostat in the filter housing.  I replaced both of mine, but it still takes a much longer time to warm up than my 300, despite the 200 having an electric fan and the 300 its viscous unit.  I put it don to the 200 sitting in a large and unobstructed bay in the 109 while the 300 was in the RR's more congested bay, but it could be a quirk of the engines.  I don't know why 200s should generally warm slower than 300s, or if that's what Fridge meant to imply.

I just compare my old S2a with its then 2.25 Petrol engine in and later converted to a Disco 200tdi and the tdi started to clear the screen within a few mins instead of 20 + mins with the 2a engine, the only think I can think is the fact that the 2.25p engine had a fixed fan bolted to it and the tdi didn't.

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Oddly, the 12J (with fixed 10 bladed SIII FFR fan) engine that preceded the 200Tdi in my 109 warmed up far faster.  I tried a few thermostats (all genuine) to speed the process, but to no avail.  It does get hot after a little while, though, and makes the heater pretty effective.  The thermostats are set hotter than Series engines, so that's a big part of it.

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My old friend has a 200tdi in his 2a 88, I have the same conversion in my hybrid. Both have no problems at all with engines warming up.

We are both using series radiators and series 3 heater boxes. I have an oil cooler separate, he does not. I modified my thermostat housing (series 3 ) to accept the 200 tdi 88 degree stat, otherwise there is about 5 mm play up and down, allowing coolant through possibly.

My oil temp reads between 70 and 90 degrees depending on workload and outside temps. It rarely goes near 90.

The heater is scalding and its only a cheap britpart aluminium replacement matrix.

The 200 tdi does warm up slowly compared to modern engines, mainly due to the huge capacity 20.20 pints 11.50 litres according to land rover discovery handbook. However when warm, running correctly and I would hasten to add with a cleaned out and descaled block, (mine took me several hours and several tens of gallons of clean water, and 2 cooling system flush chemicals (bye bye water pump, you have been warned) for me to remove all the crud from the block on a 167,000 mile unit) these units are designed to operate at around 88 degrees c, a generic engine temp across the board. Cool running engine, no!

Maybe its something to do with using a series radiator, but that would not alter warm up times significantly even at temps down to about minus 2. From recollection my 200 warms up as quick as my old smiley face transit, both engines share the mother in law syndrome, just keep going on and on, cheers.

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17 minutes ago, Bandog said:

My old friend has a 200tdi in his 2a 88, I have the same conversion in my hybrid. Both have no problems at all with engines warming up.

We are both using series radiators and series 3 heater boxes. I have an oil cooler separate, he does not. I modified my thermostat housing (series 3 ) to accept the 200 tdi 88 degree stat, otherwise there is about 5 mm play up and down, allowing coolant through possibly.

My oil temp reads between 70 and 90 degrees depending on workload and outside temps. It rarely goes near 90.

The heater is scalding and its only a cheap britpart aluminium replacement matrix.

The 200 tdi does warm up slowly compared to modern engines, mainly due to the huge capacity 20.20 pints 11.50 litres according to land rover discovery handbook. However when warm, running correctly and I would hasten to add with a cleaned out and descaled block, (mine took me several hours and several tens of gallons of clean water, and 2 cooling system flush chemicals (bye bye water pump, you have been warned) for me to remove all the crud from the block on a 167,000 mile unit) these units are designed to operate at around 88 degrees c, a generic engine temp across the board. Cool running engine, no!

Maybe its something to do with using a series radiator, but that would not alter warm up times significantly even at temps down to about minus 2. From recollection my 200 warms up as quick as my old smiley face transit, both engines share the mother in law syndrome, just keep going on and on, cheers.

Mine will be using a 300tdi rad and my last one used a 200tdi rad and it warmed up fairly quick probably as it had an electric fan that never got used as the engine warmed up to temp easily and stayed at normal and never needed to use it hopfully this one will be the same 

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My ken barlow hardly ever cuts it. once off road with the wind behind me. Those series radiators were designed to run static p.t.o. applications, yes albeit with a belt driven fan, but consider this... in the middle of harvest (august) temperatures can be pretty hot when bailing or threshing.

The disco and defender rads with the oil cooler must also be a good efficiency, to accommodate oil heat sink, but you then rely solely on the cooling system, and if it fails its two eggs broke in one basket.  Worse case scenario of course, cheers 

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