Scandihoovian Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 So, have had slight issues with my ´04 TD5 Defender, 200.000km. From a cold start it absolutely sucks at torq and I have to A) wait for the engine to warm up 5mins or B) use 4low to get out of my driveways small hill. Engine starts fine, on the first try. Engine runs evenly and does not have any extra noises. It even revs normally when on neutral. But, in gear and trying to get up that small (15%?) hill and it just start choking, stuttering and dies. History: - Blew the head gasket in jan & shop repaired it. It did not seem that engine suffered any extra damage. Gaskets have gone before as previous owner had installed the new AMC cover, but the previous owner failed to install it properly and it failed on me. - Injector nr 3 was changed few months after gasket job. - All the filters have been changed. - Fuel Pressure Regulator has been changed. - Throttle pedal crapped out few months ago and was changed. - Eyeballed MAP & MAF sensors and they looked ok. - Wiring loom on the engine side has been chaged. - Turbo wastegate was sticky and caused one overboost but now seems to move quite freely. - Turbo hose had a small oil leak but repaired, the shop said the turbo was ok though. When warm & highway engine performs relatively well. Pulls ok´ish on higher revs, can hold 120-130kmp/h but lacks the low range torque, imo. So, any guesses where to start to hunt for poor performance? Will get a nanocom in the couple of weeks, but could start troubleshooting in the meantime.. Thx in advance!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Hi and welcome to the forum... Has it been this way since the head was replaced or gradually worsened?? Does the engine smoke under acceleration? One stab at this as I've not experienced this would be that the garage may not have set the injectors up correctly and you are not getting enough fuel injected... I'm making a basic assumption that fuel pressure is good as it starts and does run, but I wouldn't eliminate the fuel pump just yet. MAF really shouldn't make a terrible difference as a lot of truck run with these broken or disconnected. Injectors: You need to set the injectors with them on the cam (ie fully depressed injector side, rocker fully raised on the cam) When fully depressed by the cam, loosen the lock nut, screw the adjuster down until it bottoms out and then screw back out one full turn. Tighten the lock nut. If the garage has set them like "normal" rockers and loosened them off at the top of the cam and set them with a gap then they will not be depressing the plungers enough to raise the required fuel pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scandihoovian Posted October 30, 2017 Author Share Posted October 30, 2017 2 hours ago, V8 Freak said: Hi and welcome to the forum... Has it been this way since the head was replaced or gradually worsened?? Does the engine smoke under acceleration? Cheers! Havent driven that much in the last months so I can not say 100% sure if it has gotten worse or not. I would be tempted to say yes though, especially as weather has turned colder in the last few weeks (close or under 0c´) . There is no smoke of any kind under accelerations, whatsoever. Unplugged the MAF and did not notice difference either. The injectors "should" have been done properly, the shop who took did the repairs are about the most reputable around here. Took the car back few weeks ago and they rechecked the timing and cylinder pressure (right term?) and they said everything was up to the speck. A while back there were some weird things going on, the car went into "limp mode" now and then. Engine light came on, engine kept running but no response to throttle. Camshaft position sensor got changed, didnt help. In the end it was the throttle pedal that was borked and got replaced = Problem solved. BUT : The shop said few weeks ago that they found one Throttle position sensor fault when they checked... Wonder if there is something going on in the wiring loom between throttle and ecu? Could that kind of problems manifest that way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 If the performance is roughly the same with MAF connected or disconnected then you have a bad MAF for a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 What fault-codes are showing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 In my head, the fact it starts first crank says fuel pressure is probably ok, crank sensor is working..... (Although it may be worth getting a new genuine spare and swapping them over - If it fails you're not going anywhere....) What is not clear is how different it is now compared to before all the work took place... You say it lacks low end torque "in your opinion" but what are you comparing to? The cold start and total lack of power when cold does suggest not enough fuel. (Not sure poor timing would account for such poor performance) For the sake of 30 minutes and a rocker cover gasket I'd be checking the injectors. My Td5 is pretty much the same cold and warm... (Although we don't see much below Zero here.....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerrymc123 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 My guess would be the MAF sensor. Pity you couldn't temporarily swap a mates just to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Is your EGR removed / blanked? If not, then the MAF is quite important as it effectively controls the EGR valve (Via the ECU) If it's removed or blanked then unplugging the MAF won't make a whole lot of difference. The ECU will use a default fueling map and probably just over fuel a little. Do a little googling to find out more... Posts like this help to explain. http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php/76951-TD5-Air-flow-sensor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scandihoovian Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 15 hours ago, Tanuki said: What fault-codes are showing? No atm. Between last spring when throttle was replaced only one TPS sensor error was logged. 15 hours ago, V8 Freak said: ...crank sensor is working..... (Although it may be worth getting a new genuine spare and swapping them over - If it fails you're not going anywhere....) That was changed along the TPS sensor, have the old one as spare. 9 hours ago, V8 Freak said: Is your EGR removed / blanked? Not afaik, unless the previous 4 owners have done some weird blanking as I nor the shop has noticed it! 16 hours ago, Eightpot said: If the performance is roughly the same with MAF connected or disconnected then you have a bad MAF for a start. Hmm. Ok. Removed the MAF couple of weeks ago and it looked intact. The car was in the shop for fault code reading so I somehow presumed the shop would have noticed in diagnostics that the MAF gives wrong readings? Will check out if I can get a hand on a working MAF though, just to check it out. Weirdest thing, yes. Few things that have been nagging in the back of my head, "Could it be?" are : - what symptoms semi stuck EGR would do? - Some kind of leak in turbo hoses / crapping out actuator? And thx for the answers, greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerrymc123 Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Apparently if the MAF sensor isn't working to spec the ECU resorts to a default setting therefore doesn't show it as a fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 EGR stuck open would reduce the exhaust gasses going through the turbo I guess.... Pretty simple to eliminate the EGR to test the theory. Something like this... https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-Blanking-plate-Landrover-Discovery-2-defender-Td5-Stainless-Steel/121251487204?_mwBanner=1&epid=704701837 Inserted between the exhaust manifold and EGR cooler or flexible pipe and EGR cooler... Insert on one end of the brass looking pipe in the middle left of the picture. Easy to get to with 4 screws on the fan cover and 3 X 13mm on the acoustic cover... That would stop the gases flowing around the EGR part totally and eliminate it as part of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scandihoovian Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 Oh. Being carp for brains, forgot couple things!!! : What I do have that I forgot to mention: i think my clutch is going out as well. DMF is shaking a bit when coming to a stop for few seconds or if you are taking of by sliding the clutch. Pinion bearing(?) have been screeching loudly now and then. The car starts moving from stop on flat surface quite normally. But on a cold start and trying to get uphill, hell, had to use 4low to get up from the yard yesterday. Second weirdness it when trying to get moving on slow speed (1st gear+reverse) the TC can kick in for a second (light comes on) and there is a churning sound from transfercase/gearbox area you can feel on brake pedal as well. Like the abs would be kick on. It goes away when pressing the clutch down. And the TC light can come on for a second if the right wheel hits a larger bump on slow speed with the "gccccrrrrrrrhh" sound as well, like the TC/Abs would kick in... What a goddamn mystery this is. Flanges were changed in the front few weeks back after front (right) wheelbearing decided to totally seize...after 1000kms... Could it be that the front diff is borked somehow, abs ring being damaged and that is feeding some weirdness to the ECU or whatnot? #baffled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scandihoovian Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 30/10/2017 at 4:56 PM, V8 Freak said: You say it lacks low end torque "in your opinion" but what are you comparing to? Forgot to reply to this, Sorry! Owned 20+ different cars, petrol+diesel. Driven on top of that about 300+ different cars, vans+electric+muscle+offroad+etc. the closest car that I am very familiar with VW Transporter 4Motions (T5+T5.1) which I have driven some 500k km with and T5 has a similar displacement (2.5L) +bhp (130). Never, ever experienced this kind of behiavour with a diesel engine. Dont know what my experiences are worth...because #defender. Things are a bit different with this car.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scandihoovian Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 And : To add more info : I have a webasto heater (scandi arctic pack). When it is on in the cold I can definitely hear a Click-Click sound from the fuel pump when it is cold. The same stall happens even without the webasto on as well. Fuel pump crapping out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Ok... Lets try and keep focus on the cold engine low power thing.... First.... Can you get into another TD5 and compare warm performance? Will you be able to buy / make a blanking plate to eliminate the EGR? (Also helps diagnose the MAF potentially) If you eliminate the EGR and cold power is still an issue, I would then be checking the injector settings. Will the garage share the actual compression readings... Ideal 450 psi, 280 will still run the vehicle, but performance will suffer.... When does your Nanocom arrive as it will be the simplest way to check the throttle pedal. MAF performance etc. Wiring loom issues not likely to just be there when cold.... So for now, until you have Nanocom and can keep a check on faults lets assume the loom is ok. Check intercooler and pipes for leaks, but that should be a constant and leak cold or hot.... Clutch will not change cold engine performance. I'm assuming clutch is not slipping when cold and engine revving.. It's definitely engine cannot pull the car forward until warm and not clutch slipping and engine revving? Screech could well be pinion bearing.. Known for TD5 to rub on these and get noisy. TC is only linked to wheel sensors to my knowledge. It compares the speed of each and if one is slower or faster it flashes and gets to work reducing the power. The TC is looking for wheel spinning.... You will feel it engage through the brake pedal and the light will flash when it's engaged. It's unlikely to flash when pulling away slowly unless there is ice under the wheels. Simple thing to check is that all 4 sensor are down to a similar level in the hubs. Front easier to see than back. If one is high it could throw out an error now and then if marginal. The vibration you are feeling might be the Dual Mass Flywheel rattling if its very worn. Hard to say from a description. Diff could be another reason if damaged internally.... Diff & Drive flanges not connected to the ECU. Noises from Transfer case could be not fully disengaged from locked diff... Maybe wise to move into and out of difflock a few times and shift high to low etc a few times and see if it goes away. Nanocom will help with diagnosis of the electrics. Focus on the engine first. If the diff is broken it will fail and give you a bigger bill but you will know when it's dead. If you are reliant on a garage to do all the work and try to sort the issues you are describing, make sure they know Land Rovers or you could be in for a big labour bill without solving the issues. What country are you in? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 MAF's are a service item, they don't last forever and will need changing at intervals. There is no error message if a MAF is not working properly, no visual clue and difficult to diagnose - other than a power loss, most noticeably felt by poor accelaration from standstill. Its just a temperature sensor really so the ecu can work out air density and modify fuelling to suit. If you unplug it, the ECU applies a nominal value so the engine still runs but not at its best. If plugging the maf back in doesnt improve this it's a strong sign the maf needs changing. If plugging the maf back in makes performance worse its a very strong sign the maf is finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 I agree the MAF could be shot, but it won't explain being unable to move a car off a drive in the morning.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally V8 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Eightpot said: MAF's are a service item, they don't last forever and will need changing at intervals. There is no error message if a MAF is not working properly, no visual clue and difficult to diagnose - other than a power loss, most noticeably felt by poor accelaration from standstill. Its just a temperature sensor really so the ecu can work out air density and modify fuelling to suit. If you unplug it, the ECU applies a nominal value so the engine still runs but not at its best. If plugging the maf back in doesnt improve this it's a strong sign the maf needs changing. If plugging the maf back in makes performance worse its a very strong sign the maf is finished. Diagnosis of the MAF is simple, 55-65KG at idle,330kg or more at 3000rpm,engine hot all loads off.Later 15p engines will be gutless for about 12 seconds after startup with a dead or disconnected MAF until the ecu gets fed up with waiting for a plausible reading,then will apply a default value - power restored. This OP's car does remind me of a situation I have seen twice in the past.In both cases the head had been removed to do a gasket job.Afterwards the vehicles started and ran OK,but were lacking in power. I diagnosed it for the garage in the end,(They had checked/swapped nearly everything) by doing an electronic compression test.(Good result) Finally I subbed over a known good set of injectors - the power was restored.My conclusion was that they had not been careful enough and had got dirt into the injectors,blocking some of the nozzle holes. The second time was a different garage who had done the same head job and just swapped the injectors on my suggestion - power restored. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scandihoovian Posted November 4, 2017 Author Share Posted November 4, 2017 On 01/11/2017 at 10:03 PM, Ally V8 said: Diagnosis of the MAF is simple, 55-65KG at idle,330kg or more at 3000rpm,engine hot all loads off.Later 15p engines will be gutless for about 12 seconds after startup with a dead or disconnected MAF until the ecu gets fed up with waiting for a plausible reading,then will apply a default value - power restored. This OP's car does remind me of a situation I have seen twice in the past.In both cases the head had been removed to do a gasket job.Afterwards the vehicles started and ran OK,but were lacking in power. I diagnosed it for the garage in the end,(They had checked/swapped nearly everything) by doing an electronic compression test.(Good result) Finally I subbed over a known good set of injectors - the power was restored.My conclusion was that they had not been careful enough and had got dirt into the injectors,blocking some of the nozzle holes. The second time was a different garage who had done the same head job and just swapped the injectors on my suggestion - power restored. Thanks for the info! Hopefully would get access to diagnostics in two weeks. Car will get its clutch done as well, hopefully removing some variables out of the equation... Will keep everyone updated when getting more info. Might help someone in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewellaaron Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 did anyone get to the bottom of this issue? i'm having issues with my 1999 td5 where my throttle seems to be a lazy when i'm pulling off. it feels as if it's under load and i'm struggling to get the engine revs up. after a few blips on the throttle it soon becomes more responsive. throttle pedal has been replaced and also a wiring harnnes from the ecu back to the pedal has been installed. any help would be greatly appreciated! thanks Aaron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 Aaron, It does sound a bit like the MAF is gone on yours... Engine off, Unplug the MAF connector. Start the engine and let it tickover for at least 20 seconds. Then drive and see if it's different to how it was. If it's livelier from the off it could be the MAF. Easily tested if you know someone with any testing equipment or local garage to plug in and check for air flow... Neil (Other than that, check for oil in the ECU plugs and clean out with brake cleaner if they are oily.... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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