Black smoking now after ticking noise issue.

[skirky dave]

Ok,..... this engine is really really doing my head in.

As you are aware from my last post ..TICKING NOISE, i found out one of  the hot spots had fallen out, creating the ticking noise.

So...ordered 4 new from Turner Engineering and the  2.5 n/a cylinder head was sorted out by Sheffield Engine Services. Fantastic job done.

Cylinder head replaced with new head gasket, manifold gasket etc etc. My son has also bought me a new Stainless exhaust system, bless him and all in situ.

Here comes the problem...AGAIN,  Started her up and it was running a little rough so i put this down to being stood on the driveway for a few months.

Took her out for a drive and....Ooops, where is all this black smoke coming from, plus ..down on power and sounding quite rough.

So i started looking up on google forum sites, as to just what could could be be the problem.

Quite a few people said.. Black Smoke = fuel issue EITHER overfueling or, maybe contaminated diesel due to water in diesel filter.

Went out to motor and emptied the fuel from the filter drain screw into an empty 4pt milk carton and then poured this into an empty jar to check for water contamination.

NOPE everything good there, unfortunately. That would have solved my problem, but it wasn't to be.

Next step..Turned engine to TDC and locked off the flywheel with locking pin..Then,..undo all fixings on and around fuel pump. Turned fuel pump until pump locking pin engaged.

Next step..Removed ALL locking pins and tighten all bolts, union pipes etc.

Next step.. Turn over engine until she fires up,..after a few cranks she burst into life but needed fine tuning on the pump. Did this, and then took the Landy for a spin !!

Still black smoke, sounds rough and down on power,... what could be wrong and have i missed something.

The engine sounds the same even if i remove the round air filter off the manifold...formerly 15J Sherpa engine.

I can't see anything leaking from anywhere. Undone each injector in turn to see if that makes any difference but NO..Still the same.

It NEVER black smoked before and has only started doing this since the hotspots and head gasket were replaced.

What is going on ??????????????. Almost out of ideas.

Any help out there guys.

Cheers Dave.

[Peaklander]

It's not lack of air is it? Collapsed hose or some other restriction giving unbalanced mix?

[Bowie69]

As above, I would be looking at the intake pipework/intercooler post-turbo, and leaks here can give black smoke.

Smoke from a badly timed pump is normally white or blue, black is definitely over-fuelling for whatever reason.

[skirky dave]

Peaklander

The only hose available would be the one leading directly from the wing vent to the round air filter pan 15J. That's totally clear and the only  air feed to the engine.

Bowie69 Eh up mate, erm, No intercooler pipework as there is no Turbo. It's a straight forward 2.5 n/a 12j engine.

Really has me stuck this one.

[Bowie69]

@skirky dave, doh

[skirky dave]

Kind of thought you might think that. and.....doh is putting  it VERY politely. The air from me was very very blue.

My next train of thought is the dreaded INJECTION PUMP ......£££££££££££££. WHY ME???. After all this work !!!.

[Maverik]

its the way of the Land Rover... you've not been touching other vehicles have you... they do get jealous...

[skirky dave]

Going to look at EVERY SINGLE HOSE  !!!

Getting mardy now!!!  Feel like throwing teddy out of the cot.

As far as i know with the 15 J & 12J Engines, there is only 1 air feed pipe to the air filter pan. ALL OTHER HOSES  are diesel fuel pipe feeds, or return pipe to fuel tank and from what i can see..there's nothing leaking diesel anywhere, so.......

[steve b]

Are the tappet clearances set ? Does it black smoke with the air intake hoses disconnected ? Black smoke is always over fuelling or  lack of air within the combustion chamber , I'd be very surprised if it is the IP , much more likely to be related to recent work .

Always frustrating when stuff like this happens but hopefully it will be a simple fix

cheers

Steve b

[skirky dave]

steve b

 

Hi Steve,

Mmm must admit, that has me thinking and i'll try to explain. I've just turned the idle speed down a bit and gone to the garage to put some fuel in. Now, when i set off she seemed a lot smoother and more power. That was from almost cold. i then travelled down the road for a further quarter mile, ( just to convince myself i wasn't going stupid ) and then it started getting lumpy with what can only be described as a loudish schick schick sound, carp explanation i know but like a very loud swiss watch, it was also a revolutionary sound. so i'm also wondering if one of the tappets near the bulkhead end needs looking at again..

Also, i.ve been speaking to a diesel specialist here in sheffield, and he said, it could be that the injection pump might not be correctly lined up and has offered to lend me a special timing pin as it's supposed to be in the shape of a triangle or something, but anyway he has all the bits to check the pump timing bang on so i shall probably take him up on his kind offer. Although it might mean taking off the whole of the front end AGAIN!!!.

Anyway.....a few more things to ponder.

 

[lo-fi]

You're not having much luck! 

The inlet hoses have been known to delaminate and collapse internally, starving it of air, causing a rich condition, lack of power and black smoke. They usually "look OK" from a casual inspection. More a lack of air than too much fuel, but amounts to the same thing. Usually worse when hot. 

A restriction in the exhaust could also cause the same, of course. I only mention because you said you'd changed it... Piece of packing getting where it shouldn't, or even a manufacturing defect isn't impossible. Less likely than inlet hose, but worth throwing it in as a "cover the simple stuff first". 

Hope you get it sorted without too much fuss. 

[skirky dave]

lo-fi

 

Cheers for that,  erm the new exhaust appears to be working ok. The diesel fumes seems to leave the system pretty much ok but, it might be worth investigating once other possibilities have been exhausted, no pun intended.

As for the breather hose delaminating, it's the old fashioned plastic type, no laminate at all, just corrugated stuff but very bendable.

I've been outside several times this evening just to check things out as things come to mind . The one thing i have done, is , to totally remove the air filter, ( Kenlowe round type ) and start the engine in the morning. See if that helps.

I just don't see any other way of creating a clean air, trouble free route to the engine with this removed. In effect no air restriction.

I shall also re check the tappets but i'm unclear as to how these would create black smoke if the gap wasn't correct ??.

I have turned down the idle screw to somewhere around 700 rpm maybe a little less i don't know.

It's my understanding that, too much fuel or lack of air causes black smoke under load, which is the problem i have.

So this leaves me with (A) Rechecking the diesel pump timing ..   (B) Air flow.. (C)..Exhaust pipe.

Anyone else care to chip in. feel free.

I kind of feel as though the answer is staring me in the face but i can't see it. Woods and trees.

Cheers again

Dave.

 

 

 

[steve b]

My reasoning for checking the tappets is : if they are tight or no clearance the valve will be open under compression allowing air volume to escape = same fuel (ish)  / less air = black smoke ?  .

let's hope tomorrow brings a solid fix

cheers

Steve b

[Bowie69]

Or way too loose = valve barely opens = lumpy running and not enough air for the fuel injected.

[Bowie69]

Hmm thinking about it, cam timing could easily do this as well?

 

[Maverik]

After reading your symptoms gut feeling is leaning towards a timing issue, but why this could have been effected from a top end overhaul is a little odd.

Blocked breather/back pressure in the sump can cause a hell of a lot of smoke production.

Now I wonder if there was a reason why the valve stem seals where not installed on this engine in the first place...

[skirky dave]

Morning guys.

steve b Bowie69 , Cheers for the explanation guys,  and for taking the trouble. Appreciate it.

As for the tappet clearance, i've always found this to be a little daunting because,..what some might call a snug fit,..someone else could say,.. That's way too tight mate, OR to the other end of the spectrum...You could get a bus through there.

I had a thought about this (One of my million pound ideas)...If they made feelers that were 10+ an extre 2 or 3  making it a10.2 or 10.3,,

then when tightened down, the actual gap size would be equivalent to 10 thou.  If you see what i mean. In other words, trying to dismiss the discrepancy , but my train of thought on this may well be wrong. It usually is. 

The article written by Les Hanson, ( how is he i've not seen him on here for a while, hope he's ok ) I thought was excellent and the method i studied and used when changing the timing belt in the summer. Fantastic article.

Also read a lot and took note from SNAGGER..Nick.

Your explanations make heersand i shall have a look in an hour once i've woken up fully !!!.

Cheers again.

 

[skirky dave]

Maverik

Exactly my thought mate. It's a Royal Pain.

Thinking i must have disturbed something, somewhere, but i haven't been anywhere near the pump. Just replaced the head and head gasket etc etc. I'm sort of expecting/hoping for a light bulb moment.  He says rolling his eyes.

[skirky dave]

Your explanations make heersand i shall have a look in an hour once i've woken up fully !!!.

...........................................................................................................................................XXXXXXX

Should read..Your explanations make sense.  See, I told you i hadn't woken up yet!!.

[Maverik]

Those cylinder heads have a pre mix chamber don't they?

[skirky dave]

All i know is that they have a pre combustion chamber. Why, where's your train of thought going. Shrek moment, i'm all ears.

[Maverik]

I was recently perusing the workshop manual and I noticed there is a core plug type affair that separates the pre combustion chamber from the cylinder combustion chamber, the plugs/inserts can be removed/replaced as part of a head overhaul, they weren't touched where they when you had the head work done?, just something randomly stupid like removing them and not putting them back, quite how that would cause such bad running is questionable. - rule out the impossible just leaves the possible however improbably... I think Spock said that once...

[steve b]

those are the "hotspots"  which were loose and the reason the head was removed  . The tappet clearance is set with the valve fully shut and the feeler gauge should slide in with minimal drag , if you have a 15 thou gauge out too after the clearance is set try the 0.015" in the gap to check . Did you use the rule of 9 method ? - ie valve no.1 fully open adjust no.8 , no.3 open adjust no.6 etc.

cheers

Steve b

[monkie]

Interesting reading. Assuming that you have confirmed that the valve clearences are correct, timing is set correctly on both cam and FIP and the air filter isn't blocked all as suggested above, then I think is must be down to one of two things related to the work you have recently done.

1) Injectors - when you took them out were you careful not allowing dirt to enter or any damage to the nozzels by dropping them? They are quite cheap to replace on an exchange basis and if you don't know when they were last serviced it is a good idea to exchange them anyway.

2) Compression - What type of head gasket did you use? There is the cheaper one that isn't that good and then there is the composite OEM one. Also did you clean up the mating surface of the block to ensure a good seal? When the combustion chambers (hot spots, swirl chambers.. etc) were installed, did you get the get head skimmed with the new ones installed, did you check that they were not excessively protruding from the surface of the head?

Hope this helps you.

[skirky dave]

OH MY GOD !!!!!.

Oh dear,  ..... well guys....i suppose i could just sit here and give you all a right pile of garbage as to the problem and say that the answer was,, this and that, blah blah blah. When the reality is completely  different.

However it would appear that the problem MAY have been my own doing.

If it is...then i hold my hands up,.. and admit it,   and at the end of the day, these forums are about learning from your own mistakes and from others. It's the way we learn.

Steve b and Bowie 69....following your suspicions,  and after trying to adjust the timing and checking every hose and working in the cold for what seemed an eternity, i decided....well, time for the rocker cover to come off and re check the tappets, even though i was pretty certain AND CONVINCED ,that i had crossed every T and dotted every I. 

So..off came the rocker cover and the re check began,...NO 8 fully opened /down and adjusted NO 1  ok there, lovely, it was at this point that my eyes glanced at the THIRD rocker along,....oh my god,...the nut had fallen off and was lying at the side of the push rod..eeek.

I carefully removed this and was just about to replace it, when..i then noticed the hardened rocker valve cap was ALSO MISSING.

This too was lying further on by number 6 pushrod.

So...the rocker shaft came off .. YET AGAIN,  and i decided to fully inspect every pushrod, pushrod brass seat, every rocker, every nut to make sure no damage had been caused elsewhere.  As you can imagine, this took some time.

As it happens....NO DAMAGE.  Thank god !!!!. I feel very, very lucky to say the least that my engine didn't go bang. How i got away with that one,..i have no idea but the nut and valve cap was pretty much stuck down with the 20/50 engine oil.

This nut MIGHT, have come loose of it's own accord, Maybe it was my fault...i don't know.

 

So... i methodically re checked/set the tappets and made damn sure the lock nuts were tight.

Re fitted the rocker cover,  and after a sharp intake of breath, tentatively started her back up ................NO MORE BLACK SMOKE !!!!!.

Thank god for that ( i thought).  Took her for a spin round the block and she pulls like a train. Timing pump just requires a little adjustment but that's all. The main thing is everything's ok ,....for now,.. ( TOUCHWOOD)!!!.

So......THANK YOU, for pointing me in the right direction guys about the tappets, otherwise i would still be trying to sort it out.

All the best, cheers,

Dave.