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Dual pulleys for Vee belt on TDI 200 12L water pump


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Hi, Another query, this one I am sure I have read somewhere on this forum.

Seen a few photos of blokes who have moved the alternator from the near side of the engine over to sit on a bracket bolted to the top of the alloy timing case When I inherited this 12L 200TDI engine, half the fixtures or fittings were either missing or had been removed by someone else.

Originally I had it set up with just a single vee belt, dual groove pulley on the crankshaft as well as the alternator but only a single pulley on the water pump. Belt tension  was simply moving the alternator adjusting bracket. There was no other auxilliary brackets, pulleys, idler pulleys, no air con, no power steering pump. Really only a bare engine with a few odds and ends in a box.

Apparently the conversion of the alternator from near side to drivers side is quite common, even seen photos of blokes running dual alternators. 

Is there a dual pulley set up for the water pumps on these engines, or do blokes bolt some sort of jockey (or idler) pulley somewhere in the system?

Just add at this point that I wont be installing the original fan that screws onto the water pump spigot, puts the fan blades too far to the drivers side. have a 16" electric fan to take care of cooling.

Need to move the alternator as going to need as much room as I can garner in the area where the alternator was originally positioned. Already re-clocked the turbocharger and intend mounting an air box in the space with an inlet coming from behind the passengers side of the cab, along the chassis.

Any photos (or links) would be helpful pertaining to how others have set up the alternator and pulleys once it has been swapped to other side.

Thanks in advance, Dave64

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2 minutes ago, Dave64 said:

Is there a dual pulley set up for the water pumps on these engines, or do blokes bolt some sort of jockey (or idler) pulley somewhere in the system?

Any photos (or links) would be helpful pertaining to how others have set up the alternator and pulleys once it has been swapped to other side.

 

I did that for my PAS conversion.  I just used another water pump pulley back to back with the original and slightly longer bolts. http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk/pas-pump/

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Thanks to ALL for your invaluable tips, photos and advice.

Not really a R/R or L/R, just like the TDI 200 engine, sits in the chassis just nice, a little wider than I would really like, but they say nothing is unachievable if you think about it long enough, along with input from blokes who have done extensive modifications.

Get a coat of paint on it hopefully in the new year. Not all that far off rolling it out of the shed so all will be revealed. Silly season here so won't get much sense out of anyone over here for the next month, time to take stock of what parts I need, waiting on a special uni-joint and then the driveline is complete other than getting the original tailshaft shortened, no biggie.

Have a plate bolted to where the original alloy alternator sat, looks like the ideal place to mount an idler pulley if I can locate one in twin groove format.

If I can adjust it there, also at the alternator itself, may do what Snagger suggests and bolt two water pump pulleys back to back. At the moment, only about one third of the pulley circumference is in contact with the actual vee belt.

Just want to take a moment to wish everyone all the best for the season and once again, thanks for all your input.

 

Cheers, Dave64

Edited by Dave64
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Spent the weekend away, whilst there, sussed out a 200TDI 12L jockey pulley (belt tensioner) from a L/Rover dealer, as they are a sealed unit (virtually throw away, thought I may as well spring for a new one).

I have the invoice for the quote, AUD $398.00! Man, they have just got to be kidding! After picking myself up off the floor, wandered around to an engineers supply place I buy a few bits and pieces off, dual groove alloy pulley same O.D, two sealed bearings and a step bolt, all up cost AUD $68.00.

Whilst at the L/R spares also priced a water pump pulley (not the pump), AUD $110.00.

On the way home, called into a bearing joint I buy my bearings off, can supply same diameter O.D. pulley in either single of dual groove, pressed steel to suit 12A belts, AUD $35 and $43 respectively. Needs the old pulley to ensure same internal bore size, is blank (no holes) simple matter to drill the three mounting holes.

Are you guys over there also paying what I would call an exhorbitant price for your parts? I know they have to be imported over here, but as I said to the parts salesman, come on!

Cheers, Dave64

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Just a hint for anyone who may have run into difficulties when swapping alternators side to side.

I found here that if I modified the alternator pulley to take a twin groove pulley, (alloy ones are easy to get), I ran the main drive belt from the crankshaft pulley to the alternator to the INNER groove on the vee belt tensioner and a SECOND vee belt from the alternator to the water pump to the vee belt tensioner outer groove, I bypassed the problem with there only being a single drive belt pulley on the water  pump .(I got hold of another water pump pulley to try, but didn't matter if you tried to mount them back to back, or two together with a spacer in between, in my application they don't line up).

So, easiest thing to do was grab hold of the standard vee belt tensioner, cut the pulley off where the shaft joins the cast bracket with an ultra thin cutting disc, punch the remaining piece of the shaft out with a hammer and drift.

Of course it wrecks it, but it looks like once they are starting to wear out, you can't replace the bearing in it anyway.

Next a 12mm "step" bolt was pressed into the now vacant hole, (the allen headed capscrew was a good fit with minimal material to remove). The head of the stepbolt was secured with a touch of the mig.

A new twin groove alloy pulley of the same diameter had already been purchased, any good machinery shop spares carry them.

This dual groove pulley was put in a lathe, had the centre turned out to take two sealed bearings pressed together and for a bit of added security, loctited in. The step bolt can be packed out with hardened steel washers , spacing not being a real issue. The pulley is then secured with another hardened washer, then the securing nut. I added another nut as a locknut, probably doesn't really need it but had it anyway.

So, now you have a dual groove tensioner that mounts in exactly the same place and way as the original L/R one did. Have adjustment at the alternator with the normal slotted adjusting bracket as well as at the tensioner. Had to use an industrial vee belt on the OUTER pulley because normal automotive vee belts only come in one inch increments. 32 inch too small, 33 inch too large, had to order a 32.5 inch belt, bit harder to get so ordered two, how often do you spit a vee belt out if you are aligned and tensioned properly?

IF there is any drawback in doing it this way, (sounds a bit of ginning around but not really too big an issue) it may be that the PRIMARY vee belt doesn't drive the water pump directly. It drives from the crankshaft pulley to the inner tensioner groove to the inner alternator groove. The water pump is now driven by the OUTER groove on both the alternator and tensioner.

Reason for doing it this way was that to perfectly match the tension on the two belts the same, could use a standard cogged vee belt which by itself clears the water pump and lower radiator hose and still achieve the original gearing of the components. The industrial outer belt was a compromise which gave me what i was after.

I have removed all the brackets, alloy castings from where they originally were installed on the near side (passenger) of the engine. Roughly measuring the available space, can now fit a standard 200TDI 12L air cleaner and brackets  in the space, but have the canister facing towards the ground. A short piece of flexible hose from the compressor side of the turbo into the air cleaner should take care of air cleaner outlet. Inlet can be mounted just about anywhere i wish to put it.

Dave64

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Just for you!  My doubled up water pump pulley to run the top mounted PAS pump as per my link.  This had to be done as it's a Discovery 200Tdi with the left side accessory mounting removed as it would have prevented installation of the intercooler plumbing.  The alternator was mounted on a SIII alternator mount, which was itself mounted forward with washer packs to align the alternator pulley with the sole crank pulley and original water pump.

 pas-pump-3.jpg

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Bowie69,

OK, OK, I can take a hint, will take some pix in next cupla days and post them up.

Snagger, looked at doing something similar to what you have done, but had already committed myself to the dual pulley set up on alternator and tensioner.

Still, if I ever want to mount another component, that would be the way I would go, stealing your idea and using the spare water pump pulley.

Just looking at your setup, you're only running the single groove Crankshaft pulley? And that round plate on the timing cover case directly beneath that newly installed pump, that's where my original tensioner sat.

Dave64

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6 minutes ago, Dave64 said:

Just looking at your setup, you're only running the single groove Crankshaft pulley? And that round plate on the timing cover case directly beneath that newly installed pump, that's where my original tensioner sat.

 

I added aircon to my 300Tdi RRC, which uses the same ac compressor on the same position, and uses a very similar tensioner in the same location - the main difference is just in being a serpentine rather than V-belt.

I am debating the benefits of trying to move the PAS pump down to the standard Defender position - I have a 19J bracket and plate.  There are a few issues with doing so, but it would allow me to drive the PAS off a second belt if I get a crank pulley from a Defender or PAS equipped Discovery engine, but as standard, the Discovery engine used a single belt to drive the water and PAS pumps, with a secondary belt from the PAS pump to the alternator (or perhaps the other way around).  But ultimately, all the ancilliaries were driven by one belt.  I'd rather reduce its load.  I also fancy the idea of aircon, and/or perhaps a second alternator.  I think I could use a Defender crank pulley with three belts to do it - rear most belt to drive the PAS and primary alt, middle pulley to drive the aircon, and the front pulley to drive the water pump and a second alt using the double water pump pulley.  It's a lot of load, but alternators don't provide much resistance unless they're working hard, and the aircon would be idling most of the year.  Besides, it's a 109, not a  sports car!

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As a note, I think the norm is to power the steering pump first, and then if you are daisy-chaining stuff, you stick the alternator on the end.

Reason being an alternator failure is of little consequence other than a flat battery, PAS failure could cause an accident for a less alert driver.

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2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

As a note, I think the norm is to power the steering pump first, and then if you are daisy-chaining stuff, you stick the alternator on the end.

Reason being an alternator failure is of little consequence other than a flat battery, PAS failure could cause an accident for a less alert driver.

That makes good sense.  Fortunately, my PAS with not hydraulics is similar in load to the standard SIII system it replaced, so is entirely manageable even at walking pace.  But I will factor it in if I redesign the configuration.

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Thanks for the hints, Guys.

In an earlier answer to my query, (western 9 Dec) posted that there is or was a THREE pulley crankshaft drive. I made a few inquiries over here before starting to modify things and was told, (perhaps wrongly?) that they were very scarce and that possibly they only came out here in Oz on certain models (R/R??).

Same bloke told me it may have been easier to get an aftermarket set up, but I didn't pursue it any further.

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Thanks Men!

                             Obviously the bloke who told me the above gave me a bum drum!

Still, good to know in future if I want to add something else.

Meant to add, all the best to all over there for the silly season, keep it safe, don't knock yourselves around TOO much!

And, thanks for all the info, tips and general advice over the last year! 

Cheers, Dave64

Edited by Dave64
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OK, here's the offending little beggar!

Unassembled and second one is installed.

Slight hiccup with vee belt sizes, A32 too small, A33 too big for perfect match.

They do make an industrial belt in 13A series, 32.5", have to order it in, get no sense out of anyone over here, especially this time of year!

Dave64

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100_0406.JPG

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