Jump to content

Premium Durability, premium b******s more like


SteveG

Recommended Posts

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/land-rover-defender-be-reinvented-2019

Confirmation that the next Defender will be on strengthened RR/Disco monocoque and with the “Premium Durability” being used by McGovern you can guarantee it’s going to be a significant increase in price.

It will come in 2 wheelbases, shown in 2018, on sale in 2019.

its a shame that Jeep and Mercedes are doing a better job of building and delivering a Defender like vehicle than LR, and they didn’t break production for 3+ years too.

Personally, I think that a Defender that’s only different in looks and price from an RR/D5 is a cop out.

Autocar imagined images...

large.79291E11-481E-46E2-8054-F3D678400531.jpeg.1cbdb55b0bae0725b72075e2ce7e9b6e.jpeg

large.8F264B7F-604C-420E-8492-7D66933CF8C3.jpeg.de82725e361cdcfc56b3fab852143e03.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "commercial" one in those photos looks nice: now let's hope that they produce a version with a petrol engine and manual transmission! A nice DOHC straight-six or V6, about 3 litres, with a low-pressure turbo or two...

I've come to the conclusion that for anyone buying a vehicle that they intend to keep for more than a few years, Diesel is well and truly dead: all the fretting about particulate-pollution means we can be sure there will be significant hikes in first-registration-tax and yearly VED for Diesel vehicles along with Diesel fuel-duty going up significantly faster than the duty on petrol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are just Autocar's renderings, not LR's, and they look like they're based on the DC100.  We'll have to wait and see, but it doesn't sound like it'll be anything like the simple Defenders that we can all work on at home or in the field.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know they are pretty, but try to keep in mind that the pictures above and in the article are all guesses as to what LR actually have in mind - though some may be more accurate than others! 

Landrover has an opportunity to produce a vehicle to compete with all the Japanese pick-ups that farmers, utilities etc. are now using.  They are comfortable and refined in a way no Defender has ever been, but that doesn't mean that Defender should be different.  It has to be better than the competition in order to be saleable, but what does better mean?  More durable?  More comfortable? Better at load carrying?  Better off-road? Lower running costs?  Landrover has demonstrated that an enthusiast market alone cannot justify the cost of production, so they must be aware that they NEED the fleet buyer to make Defender a success, unless they hope to dilute sales of their other models - and BL went there in the 70s and surely wouldn't make the same mistake again!? Even if Defender does move closer to Discovery at the top end of the range, is that a bad thing?  Many former Discovery owners adopted Defender in it's later years - and many found it wanting!

If I were Landrover, what would I seek to sell?   Well, a Japanese pick-up!  OK, not exactly, but essentially that is the gap in Landrover's line-up left by Defender.  It needs to be comfortable and offer modern conveniences as standard - AC, electric windows, sound deadening and a decent stereo.  It will have to be able to tow 3.5 tonnes (that is expected of a Defender!) and carry a good load - *1000kg minimum in the 110 double-cab, perhaps more in a single cab variant.  I am sure there is lots of technology Landrover can throw at Defender to make it good off-road!  We should consider though, that new Defender is unlikely to be aimed at the winch challenger, the mud plugger, the play-day driver or the green-laner, nor even the owner of 'One Life Live It' stickers.  We have already established that the enthusiast market will not support production.  It will be aimed at attracting the commercial vehicle user who's job takes him down muddy tracks, onto building sites, farmers fields and so on.  It still has to be easy to get in and out of (H+S, convenience etc!) so cannot be too high.  I am pretty sure the L200 and Amarok designers have spent some considerable time and money researching and compromising on this point. 

I expect there will be a 2.0l turbo diesel and probably petrol options as well as larger, higher performance models aimed at those who tow or for models higher up the range.  There can still be a basic model with the farmer or fleet buyer in mind, just as there is with Japanese/German/Chinese options.  There is also an option to sell a higher spec model or models, just as they did with Defender.  Why not have Discovery levels of comfort with the practicality of a utility vehicle?  Even the Defender XS never got close!

Any vehicle is going to be technically advanced and complicated, that is how the world is now.  We want more driver aids and comforts, engines have to be cleaner and it all comes at the cost of complexity.  But we will adapt to being able to diagnose and repair, just as we have with electric starters, electronic ignition, fuel injection and so on.  Modern electronic systems CAN (pun intended) be made reliable.  I would expect to see hybrid technology.

One thing that could be most attractive to commercial/fleet buyers, it Landrover get the vehicle right, is residual value.  That is, IMHO, one BIG reason why farmers kept buying Defenders as opposed to L200s.  The L200 was cheap and comfy, you could fit a load of farm stuff and animals in the back and it was OK on fuel, but once it was three years old and a bit battered it was worthless.  Defenders on the other hand...  So economy of ownership is attractive, and if Landrover can make the new Defender desirable to the second hand/enthusiast market too, that could be their USP once more.

We can only wait and see what comes, but Landrover are not known (these days) for launching vehicles and hoping for the best. They know inside and out who will buy them and why. I hope they see the world the same way as I do.  I am greatly looking forward to seeing the new Defender, I hope it is a worthy replacement.

* to meet VAT reclamation/company car tax rules as a commercial

 

Chris

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right there with you Gbmud, but sadly the modern times dont seem to favour old traditional values for whatever reason. And sadly the anticipation is almost painful because in some ways you are expecting the new concept/version to be a total let down and a failure! And if thats how it turns out we will all quietly feel robbed as secrectly we all so much want it to be a great success as it carries the Defender name forward on its shoulders!

Here's hoping it's  all that and more

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris, you're right that it needs to be an effective competitor to Japanese and American utility vehicles, but what do you notice about those?  They're cheap and basic, but robust and have large, open load areas.  Almost all of them still use live beam rear axles with leaf springs, for Christ's sake.  Independent air suspension controlled by electronics linked into multiple other systems do not make for cheap, robust or field repairable.

Utility companies across the UK love the Defender, and spend a lot of money now on maintaining them because their conversions can't be bolted onto any other platform.  There was a resurgence of Defender buying by farmers.  Several military forces around the globe wanted more of them.  LR concocted fake stories about safety and emissions to justify canning it, shifting the blame to authorities when the grandfather rights on the vehicle still permitted ongoing production, and Jeeps are still on sale for the forseable future with the same issues and no complaints have been made about emissions of Ford Transits.

It is painfully obvious that LR have killed it because they have decided to cater only for the Gucci set, and they view a working vehicle as embarrassing to their brand.  McGovern has been hugely successful in creating an image that people with too much money and too little sense want to buy into, but he has been too powerful and has steered the company away from its roots, and ultimately, its credibility.  They'll make money hand over fist in the short term, but I think it could come back to haunt them later.

I think the new vehicle will be a disaster of a commercial vehicle, and will be nothing more than what the DC100 was designed as - an overpriced, over-complex toy for the life-style image, incapable of real work and not adaptable enough and too complex for use in remote and unsupported areas.  I hope to be proven wrong, but all of the stablemates have headed in one direction, and I have read nothing from LR regarding the new Defender that doesn't point the same way.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is you can buy a "japenese" pickup for under 16k plus vat. A defender was virtually double that. Are land rover genuinely interested in making a vehicle to sell for that when they can send a vehicle down the same production line and sell if for 40+ grand.

Ok a lot of the pickups sold are 30k plus models but that's only due to them being classed as commercials for bik, if the inland revenue ever pull that then the market will die off rapidly. 

The high residual values of defenders is an argument I've heard any times and if you look at it as percentages as businesses might it is true but if you look at it in pounds which is what actually matters im not so sure. As an example I bought an isuzu is 2010 for 17k, I sold it in 2017 with 100k on it for 8k. That's under £1300 a year. A quick look on eBay brings a 2010 double cab defender up for 17k Inc vat, lets say that was 30k new, thats £2300 a year. For a company they can buy the "jap" truck, run it for several years and throw it away for what the defender cost. Of course whichever you think is the best is up to personal opinion ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Snagger said:

 ... LR concocted fake stories about safety and emissions to justify canning it, shifting the blame to authorities when the grandfather rights on the vehicle still permitted ongoing production, and Jeeps are still on sale for the forseable future with the same issues and no complaints have been made about emissions of Ford Transits.

Is it categorical that the safety claims [pedestrian frontal protection systems et al] need not apply to the Defender? Those claims seem unsurpassable with the traditional Defender design, but I've no clue what grandfather rights are. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My feeling is they've probably missed the essentials that would make a new Defender great. In no particular order it should have

- A new, gutsy and efficient turbo diesel/manual combination with good driveability and excellent towing performance. Something like the 3.2L engine out of the Shogun would transform a Defender, and the gearchange on it is like a car. Add an auto option if required on posh versions.

- Better interior comfort and soundproofing, and room to accommodate somebody over 6ft or with long legs or elbows. It isn't rocket science - the Discovery did it on a Defender chassis in the 90s.

- Basic 'comfort' features - electric windows, central locking/alarm, a decent wireless with a USB port, A/C and a good heater. You don't need lots of other rubbish, that's basically all the Japanese crewcabs have or need. Also lots of storage and flat surfaces - modern vehicles with curvy everything are stupidly impractical both for work and play.

- Excellent suspension travel and ground clearance. For me this would ideally mean beam axles but it is possible to get very good clearance and wheel travel with independent - look at the Hummer (the real one, not the hairdresser versions). Anything based on the Discovery 3 onwards type of chassis is pathetically low to the ground and really quite fragile if you smite it on a rock.

- Excellent traction control and/or locking diffs. I detest most of the LR electronics but actually Terrain Response is very effective at keeping all four wheels turning.

- 3500kg towing capability and 1000kg payload

- A modular body design in two or three wheelbases, where the lower body tub/chassis/drivetrain is common but the upper bodywork can be changed, thus you have one drivetrain for manufacturing efficiency and attach a range of bodies to suit the requirement, Station Wagon, crew cab, or to lend itself to competitive SV type conversions.

It's not exactly a looker, but the Ibex should be a study for the factory in the art of how to do Defender differently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The specialist vehicle bit they don't even need to do themselves. With VW you can order a custom modified commercial from the dealer, the base vehicle goes from the factory to their chosen partner then to the dealer but you get the usual level of support from VW on the modified vehicle. I've seen Amarok ambulances, Amaroks with extended wheel bases etc etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 16/12/2017 at 12:17 PM, SteveG said:

large.8F264B7F-604C-420E-8492-7D66933CF8C3.jpeg.de82725e361cdcfc56b3fab852143e03.jpeg

Check the thread on that spare wheel? Anyway, as mentioned, this is a guess so doesn't tell us anything.

It doesn't look like a 35" is going to fit in a hurry.

That said, I am looking forward to see (and drive) the real thing.

I suppose, it fits in the iconic group of cars (Mini, Beetle, Fiat 500) that got new replacements and got slated by purists, but are now very common.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

image.thumb.jpeg.05c9a898dcf60ca62b91a4b5c2755f09.jpeg

well it's not a million miles away in profile is it??

JLR/Tata are a company...they need to make money like every other company out there and love or loathe the line up they seem to be pretty effective at coining it in.

New defender will sell. No doubts at all. Will it upset the purists? What doesn't...:rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Scotts90 said:

 

JLR/Tata are a company...they need to make money like every other company out there and love or loathe the line up they seem to be pretty effective at coining it in.

New defender will sell. No doubts at all. Will it upset the purists? What doesn't...:rolleyes:

I don’t think anybody is denying that to exist JLR need to sell cars.

However, they rolled out a lame set excuses for killing off the Defender, breaking a line of production going back to 1948, then they try and use their ‘Heritage’ by misusing names like Velar to release yet another niche tweak extending the Range Rover brand.

Then they’re shown up by companies like Mercedes who can still manage to keep and ‘aging 4x4’ in the market, and launch a pick-up too. Jeep still manage to sell a live axle vehicle, ship a version from the showroom with locking diffs and 33” mud terrains, and still meet all the modern emissions, safety laws etc.

So even when profits are good, they couldn’t look after their real Heritage and continue Defender production either with a replacement, or until one came along. 

This is why people are Mildly miffed off, and when they hear it’s going to be based on the premium monocoque platform, it doesn’t exactly fill them with hope that they will continue with the ethos of the Series/Defender bloodline.

A strengthened, different looking RR/Disco with plastic bits stuck on, ala an Audi all-road, doesn’t make a Defender successor. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just don't get the personal trait of being miffed. The vehicles built in the BL/Rover group era were possibly one of the poorest constructed and lowest quality produced and it's purely subjective as to whether standards improved up until the end of production through the subsequent change of hands. The manpower intensive production line of the defender would be fine on a low volume niche product (which is what many of the contenders for a replacement vehicle seem to be) but for a large scale manufacturer it's all about efficiency and numbers; be it man hours, cost, or units built.

Theres no way it can be any worse built than the defender of old (character if we want to get emotional) and it'll hopefully surpass the quality of the Japanese offerings (thin paint, poor rust protection, poor plastics). I've had Shoguns and L200s, the inlaws farm fleet now consists of two brand new L200s, only because they got a better deal with the 'bishi or it would have been Rangers. Build quality is dire.

It's all thoroughly entertaining though, we effectively argue over something that we have absolutely no influence over. Until it's released and pored over in the metal then hopefully driven by a few and compared to its rivals (and contemporaries) it's all moot.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Scotts90 said:

it's purely subjective as to whether standards improved up until the end of production through the subsequent change of hands

Nothing has really improved at all from the 90s to the last of line 2.2 Puma in terms of assembly quality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, BogMonster said:

- Better interior comfort and soundproofing, and room to accommodate somebody over 6ft or with long legs or elbows. It isn't rocket science - the Discovery did it on a Defender chassis in the 90s.

I think you'll find it was the RRC platform... but under the skin they are all very similar.

I didn't realise that they'd dropped the pickup from the lineup... got a feeling that they've dropped something else..... The main bulk of Defenders that you see are pickups in some guise, if they wanted to make a 2 door van type motor.. why on earth didn't they just do a commercial Freelander and leave the Defender alone! 

Yes it's a bit dated, but that is why it's so popular... you don't have to rush out and buy a whole truck load of special tools to work on it... the bent screwdriver and bailing twine still suffice! I've got a funny feeling that it's going to be a flop.. I know peeps that have been Discovery buyers for decades, but the new D5 just doesn't cut the mustard, so they are looking for a replacement, and it isn't at a LR showroom... Not everyone thinks that third world exploration starts north of Chelsea...

I wonder what the Japanese make of it all? I bet they haven't stopped laughing...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same thing different length! It was intended to be illustrative rather than specific, meaning that you can put a comfy vehicle on basically the same ladder chassis/live axles to make life more comfortable without compromising much in the way of ability.

I am firmly in the "D5? My god No" camp, having owned 3 Discoverys in the past, two of which were purchased new. And three Defenders that were either new or nearly new (still under warranty). So McGovern and his comedy Harry Hill shirt is putting off serious buyers, not just welding enthusiasts who would never buy one anyway.

Unfortunately I suspect that as long as they make the profit, they don't really care where they make it, but I do wonder how long the 'brand image' has got left once the brand no longer has a traditional product that the army can use.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the whole snatch land rover thing getting all the media attention and the shift in fighting being from some people all dressed the same standing in a line in front of you pointing a gun to people hiding in a crowd trying to covertly blow you up in a public place steered the MOD away from a defender with a few bits screwed on to the more bespoke manufactured products. Vehicles with explosion deflecting hulls, the grills on the side to stop the rockets penetrating, etc etc... Maybe even air conditioning :lol:

I love Defenders as they were and I really wanted a 110 pickup but when I went and drove it I couldn't live with it every day for a vehicle that spends 90% of it's time on the road, which is why I stuck with pickups. I always though the discovery and freelander commercial were a good compromise for the people like me that couldn't live with the defender but they never offered a design that quite met my needs and now they've dropped them.

I think you just have to accept that LR make a lot of money by selling bling to China and Dubai and just be thankful that the manufacturing is still in the UK as beyond the direct employment, it also supports a lot of second and third tier suppliers. Personally I can't see that lasting forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

I think you just have to accept that LR make a lot of money by selling bling to China and Dubai and just be thankful that the manufacturing is still in the UK as beyond the direct employment, it also supports a lot of second and third tier suppliers. Personally I can't see that lasting forever.

As someone living in Dubai, I can tell you that their share of desert-going vehicles is drying up.  The Gucci models are common and are used by locals and wealthy expats, the Discoverys by well off expats with large families, but few of those venture further off road than the sandy lots of the garages.  Defenders, RRCs and older Discoverys do occasionally venture into the desert, but they are few in number, massively outnumbered by Jeeps, Patrols, Pajeros and FJ Cruisers.  There would be a healthy market if they sold them for a sensible price (all LRs cost about twice their UK tag here), as desert driving and mountain camping is a common pass-time and the rugged look is popular here. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy