ThreeSheds Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Simple question - does anyone know of a type of locking wheelnut for Discovery TD5 alloys, that will stand being undone with a rattle gun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teabag Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 I've never used or had a tyre shop use rattle gun on any of my vehicles wheels, anyway who uses them now on alloy wheels, I had tyres replaced on my disco three years ago at the local KwikFit and there wasn't a gun to be seen, just the 'spiders' and of course the important torque wrench . If the vehicle is maintained there shouldn't be an issue in releasing wheel nuts , I suspect there's still the cowboys about that will release and tighten wheel nuts fitted to alloy wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 Teabag, my problem is that I have some medical/drug relted conditions that make undoing 20 wheenuts by hand a bit of a chore... So it's me that wants to use the rattle gun for undoing and spinning on (but not tightening) them. I am also undertaking some restoration and conversion work which means that I may be taking the wheels off quite often.. Hence the question I think that I have decided to forget about locking wheelnuts for the moment - especially since it seems particularly easy to defeat most if not all of them. But thanks for the answer - all opinions are much appreciated. Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 To be honest, I use a rattle gun on mine ally he time, they weren't expensive either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teabag Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, ThreeSheds said: Teabag, my problem is that I have some medical/drug relted conditions that make undoing 20 wheenuts by hand a bit of a chore... So it's me that wants to use the rattle gun for undoing and spinning on (but not tightening) them. I am also undertaking some restoration and conversion work which means that I may be taking the wheels off quite often.. Hence the question I think that I have decided to forget about locking wheelnuts for the moment - especially since it seems particularly easy to defeat most if not all of them. But thanks for the answer - all opinions are much appreciated. Roger Sorry to hear of your medical issues ThreeSheds, hope you soon return to normal. Yes it is a bit of a chore releasing the wheel nut after they have been torqued up to something like 95-100 lbs/ft for a few months but I can do it with the standard LR supplied wrench if I had to, I now use an extendable wrench which is a lot well a bit easer, then I use the spider to spin off the nuts and also spinning them back on, using my torque wrench to nip the nuts tight. My problem now is lifting the heavy wheel back on the hub and keeping it there while fitting the first nut. Back to the nuts, there are wheel nuts available for the Disco alloys made from a solid steel, so without the factory fixed cover on the nuts, I've seen them on eBay, they may be even stainless as they very shiny and look quite good, so have look they may be what your looking for. Edited January 6, 2018 by teabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggit Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Locking wheel nuts shouldn't be torqued up as high as the rest of the wheel nuts, I sometimes use an impact wrench to remove my wheels, but normally do it by hand as it's a faff getting everything out!, anyway most locking wheel nuts will cope with an impact wrench... just don't nip them up with one! Only use it to take up the slack.. Also do up the other wheel nuts first, as you can give them a little welly with the gun, but I'd recommend a torque wrench for the final stage, and something around 50 ft.lb for the locking nuts.. they are more of a deterrent, and tend to be softer than normal wheel nuts. As for the type I'd try and get the ones that engage on the outside of the nut, the internal type tend to be more problematical! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 On 06/01/2018 at 9:11 PM, miggit said: Locking wheel nuts shouldn't be torqued up as high as the rest of the wheel nuts Sorry Miggit, but I disagree with you on this point - IMHO the torque settings for a wheel nut are set a safe levels assuming that all five are evenly done up... On 06/01/2018 at 2:16 PM, teabag said: My problem now is lifting the heavy wheel back on the hub and keeping it there while fitting the first nut. I hear you brother! :D... I have even tried at times to devise some sort of lever or jacking system that would help... I often find that I have to sit back for a few moments rest between getting the wheel on the hub and fitting the nuts - such are the pleasures of a dicky heart and 'statin pains' On 06/01/2018 at 2:16 PM, teabag said: Back to the nuts, there are wheel nuts available for the Disco alloys made from a solid steel Yes - I have seen these and they look good (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172202468700). It would be nice to get rid of the tin cover and the corrosion of the inner nut that causes bloating problems, but they are three times the cost of normal nuts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggit Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Well there are answers to every problem... Firstly if you are going to be torquing your locking nuts to 110 ft.lb, with a windy gun, then I would advise you to get the type that engauge on the outer, some of the locking wheel nuts that I have come across with either a silly flower shape stamped in the top (have them on my ML) or the internal splined type (removed from L322) wouldn't like that sort of torque... In fact I was so impressed with my genuine Range Rover one's that I ditched them in favor on standard wheel nuts. As far as getting the wheels on... I produced a tool to aid wheel fitting on the L322.. I called it a Guide-o-Matic! and they look like this... So there is an answer to most problems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, miggit said: As far as getting the wheels on... I produced a tool to aid wheel fitting on the L322.. I called it a Guide-o-Matic! and they look like this... oooh I like that! Do you sell them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Audi provided you with one of those back in the 90s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggit Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: Audi provided you with one of those back in the 90s They were for cars with wheel bolts, they are basically a long bolt with the head cut off! It gets a little more involved when you're talking wheel nuts!! 2 hours ago, ThreeSheds said: oooh I like that! Do you sell them? I did.. but they were costing me a fortune to get made... having seen your post it's got my mind ticking... I'm wondering if they could be made out of aluminium instead of steel... it all rather depends on the size of the hole that goes through the wheel rim, the later LR's have a parallel hole in the wheel and the washer does the clamping.. I haven't paid much attention to my RRC wheels, so I'd need to have a look..and it's bloody cold out there In theory the D2 and P38 wheels should be the same, I'll try and get access to some later this week. The problem that I had with the originals, was my lathe is not much bigger that a hobby one and I have to tap the guides by hand.. after 8 sets it literally made my hands bleed So I paid someone else to make them, this pushed up production costs to a point that they weren't as popular as they had been and it took a long time to shift them (also had to buy in bulk to keep costs down). If I can do them in ally then my weedy lathe will cope!! If some one can tell me if the hole is parallel in a D2 wheel and how big it is (approx. doesn't have to be to the nearest thou, 5 thou will do) this will speed things up! I must admit that I found myself longing for a set for the RRC the other day so I might look into making them for the larger thread. Edited January 8, 2018 by miggit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, miggit said: They were for cars with wheel bolts, they are basically a long bolt with the head cut off! It gets a little more involved when you're talking wheel nuts!! Yep indeed, you only really needed them because the disc isn't secured to the hub in any other way... Also, they were made of hollow plastic! (I drive a 90's Audi as a daily ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted January 8, 2018 Author Share Posted January 8, 2018 Disco2 and P38 alloys are the same and have parallel holes (so the nut has a flange and washer) the diameter of the part of the nut that goes through the hole is 29mm. On Disco3 and later I think the same part is 27mm dia but not 100% sure on that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggit Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 How big!!! The D3/D4 and 2005 on Range Rovers are 22.5mm hole, and 2002-2005 Range Rovers are 20mm... I know that one! My original guides were 20mm dia to allow them to fit all years... If we are really looking at 27-29mm hole then ally should be more than OK! I will look further into it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggit Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 15 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: Yep indeed, you only really needed them because the disc isn't secured to the hub in any other way... Also, they were made of hollow plastic! (I drive a 90's Audi as a daily ) I need a set for my ML.. it takes longer to get the first wheel nut on than it does the jack the car remove and usually do a full brake service!! They were invented by an Evil Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggit Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Right you rotten lot, curiosity got the better of me and I've just ventured out to the RRC to measure to hole in the wheel... I have discovered 2 things... The hole is 29.3 mm, and, it's bloody freezing out there... I've probably caught Man Flu I will double check with a pal, who has a P38, just to be safe and start tinkering, I've already found some 15/16" ally bar that should do nicely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teabag Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) That will save me doing that with my disco wheels when I get home to night, RRc wheels are the same as the D1s, and Defender I believe. So it's basically a bit of threaded tube is it not. But then I only remove my wheels every 2 or 3 years. Edited January 8, 2018 by teabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggit Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Well sort of, there is a little bit more to them than a straight threaded tube.... I tapered mine to make it easier to find the hole (keep it clean chaps), trying to get a large rod into a slightly bigger hole and balance it all isn't as easy as you'd think, by reducing the starting diameter to something around half makes life easier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teabag Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 hours ago, miggit said: Well sort of, there is a little bit more to them than a straight threaded tube.... I tapered mine to make it easier to find the hole (keep it clean chaps), trying to get a large rod into a slightly bigger hole and balance it all isn't as easy as you'd think, by reducing the starting diameter to something around half makes life easier! All sounds great idea, initially the product would be for "heavy" wheels in the diy owners market, so after watching Dragons Den over the years, if the concept works and you have a few working prototypes to offer up then you could source a backer, or better still maybe to sell the idea etc on to a parts manufacturer. I for one if I saw the kit in Halfords or on eBay would get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintman Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 On 1/6/2018 at 2:16 PM, teabag said: Sorry to hear of your medical issues ThreeSheds, hope you soon return to normal. Yes it is a bit of a chore releasing the wheel nut after they have been torqued up to something like 95-100 lbs/ft for a few months but I can do it with the standard LR supplied wrench if I had to, I now use an extendable wrench which is a lot well a bit easer, then I use the spider to spin off the nuts and also spinning them back on, using my torque wrench to nip the nuts tight. My problem now is lifting the heavy wheel back on the hub and keeping it there while fitting the first nut. Back to the nuts, there are wheel nuts available for the Disco alloys made from a solid steel, so without the factory fixed cover on the nuts, I've seen them on eBay, they may be even stainless as they very shiny and look quite good, so have look they may be what your looking for. Roll the wheel onto the blade of a spade & use your bodyweight to lift the wheel by pressing down on the spade handle. Spade at 90deg to the wheel. Shovel works well as the lips make it a bit harder for the wheel to try & roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggit Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Teabag, when you get old every bloody wheel is heavy! Anyway it's not the weight it's the angles that you put your back in maneuvering it on to the studs that does the damage, and usually ends in "was that my back??" The different lengths allow you to engage 1 hole and then pivot the wheel to engage the shorter guide... if you were to have both the same length you'd end up fighting it trying to line it all up... much the same as doing it without, only closer to the car!! A few weeks after my prototypes had been sold, one of my purchasers tested them in anger at the roadside dressed for a business meeting... in the wet, winter, and didn't get dirty! He confessed to buying them to aid DIY, but was glad they were in the glovebox! And Paitman, the shovel method is very good, especially if it's large wheels (HGV), the only drawback is the shovel wont fit in the glovebox! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teabag Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, paintman said: Roll the wheel onto the blade of a spade & use your bodyweight to lift the wheel by pressing down on the spade handle. Spade at 90deg to the wheel. Shovel works well as the lips make it a bit harder for the wheel to try & roll. Top tip thank u I'll tell my 88 year old gardener it may help him, and I may even try it first as I don't want to loose him. Edited January 8, 2018 by teabag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 What I used to do with my old 33" BFGs when my back was playing up was lower the axle enough to be able to wiggle the wheel on without any lifting. Sometimes takes a bit of back-and-forth to get the holes in the right place though but meant I didn't have to do any lifting. Regarding the torque of the locking nuts, they should always be the same as the rest. There's no reason why you should leave them at a lower torque as its all designed for an even loading on all 5. They should all be happy being released with an impact gun, but obviously putting back on the final torque should be with a torque wrench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paintman Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 17 hours ago, miggit said: And Paitman, the shovel method is very good, especially if it's large wheels (HGV), the only drawback is the shovel wont fit in the glovebox! A minor detail I've got some of the bolt type screw-ins , from one of the techies at one of the caravan firms & use them in the way you outlined. I'd not seen the type you've made to go over studs & that's clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igol Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Out of interest has anyone actually had their wheels nicked off an old Disco? I got sick of riding the cusp of ragging the locking bit/slipping off and bashing knuckles on hard bits every time I removed a wheel for a job and replaced the lot with standard nuts. Round here they take the whole thing not just the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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