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monkie

19J 2.5TD Breather Modification

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There is a lot out there on 19J engines having high crank case pressure. Usually due to cracks in the pistons, but even so these engines do breath quite heavily. I decided to look into this and do something.

The problem: The breather system on the 19J is not well designed even on the later modified engines as enters the intake system before the airfilter. The idea being that any oil from the breather carried over will be thrown to the sides of the filter case and escape through the drain at the bottom. In reality if excess oil does carry through the breather system into the air filter case, you end up with a soggy airfilter that will break down and get sucked into the turbo if not sorted out. In the worse case if the oil in the sump is over filled or there is really high crank pressure from a failed head gasket or serious piston cracks then large amounts of oil could be drawn into the engine inlet, sufficent to cause the engine to run to destruction on it's own oil.

Original breather system on a  late 19J (as fitted into my 110 after the engine change post rebuild) shown in the first picture. There is a hose connecting the block to the rocker cover at the rear of the engine (out of view) which was a modification to the 19J made in 1987/88 onwards, then as shown the pipe from the oil filler cap goes straight to the induction system before the air filter.

Potential Solutions:

(1) Remove the pipe from the induction system and route it to a catch tank. I've read about a few people opting for this one. I don't like it as it looks homemade, you have to check the catch tank and drain it if necessary, the engine could empty itself of oil in a worse case scenario, the cab could get smelly from oil fumes which won't be pleasant and finally there is no attempt at lowering the crank case pressure which will encourage leaks from seals. For these reasons, I have chosen to avoid this.

(2) Fit an aftermarket air/oil separator somewhere inline between the engine and induction system. Great but I don't like the look and they can be expensive to buy new.

(3) The Tdi engines are fitted with a cyclonic separator which will return oil to the sump via the block. You could copy this, as I was originally thinking, but then I came across this (second pic) fitted to MOD 2.5NA engines which is a similar design to the tdi system but made for the 12J engines.

What I did:

I looked for parts ERR1468 (control valve), ERR2886 (breather cyclone), ERR1570 (sump for cyclonic breather) on ebay and managed over the period of a couple of months to source all as old new stock for a reasonable sum (alot less than ordering new). Got some clips and pipe then fitted as in the pic. Works a treat, very happy with it.

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2.5NA breather system.jpg

DSCN1854.JPG

DSCN1855.JPG

DSCN1857.JPG

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What I don't understand about this cyclonic breather, which is vert similar to that on Tdis, is that the inlet dumps to the middle of the chamber and the exhaust to the induction system is on the tangental edge port, where all the oil droplets are meant to be centrifugally thrown.  It seems backwards.

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19 minutes ago, Snagger said:

What I don't understand about this cyclonic breather, which is vert similar to that on Tdis, is that the inlet dumps to the middle of the chamber and the exhaust to the induction system is on the tangental edge port, where all the oil droplets are meant to be centrifugally thrown.  It seems backwards.

It's the other way round. The pipe from the oil cap carrying the oil vapour enters the cyclonic chamber on the tangent. The pipe to the induction system is taken from the middle.

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So the idea is that any vapours will be carried through and taken into the induction system and burnt off by the engine. Any oil droplets being carried through should be spun out and returned to the sump rather than carried straight to the oil filter. So far the air filter is clean and oil free having driven about 5K miles since this modification. Although this engine hasn't got a massive breathing problem, the airfilter before this modification (15k miles) was damp with oil. I think this is largely helped by the valve preventing the intake system taking a huge gulp from the crank case when the turbo spins up.

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I understand that, but take a look at the induction system of any Tdi and they tend to be very oily.  The intercooler needs occasional removal and emptying.  Mt 109's stays clean because I have a 19J filter system, including the connection with the breather hose.  But that's also why I use a K&N filter (with the plastic vortex generator from a standard paper filter added).

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You are right, what I want to do to further this modification is to move the breather pipe from before the filter to after the filter like on a Tdi. But I do think that this cyclonic system is far better than a hose from engine to intake.

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There's a 200-109 owner in Malta (Pat, aka Gremlin) that has very good results with after-market oil catchers.  I've forgotten the brand (think it may have been Aussie or Canadian, beginning with M, but could be way off!), but he reckons it's very worthwhile, and drains back to the sump.

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I think I saw them when I was initially looking into this. If you google "19J breathing system" this is the first image that comes up (not my picture). It looks a little too Max Power like for my preferences.

Is this the sort of thing you mean?

image.thumb.png.65f15384dd2f2952e6a4af9204715b78.png

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Nothing quite so nasty looking!  I am very averse to bright metal or coloured under-bonnet or under-vehicle fittings.  Mann and Hummel Pro-vent are what I was thinking of.

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fella, ive got a blown up ex MOD 2.5 na and instead of going down the same line of another na, I got an old 89 19j, just for that little bit more power, thing is ive sent the turbo off for a refurb and the fella has come back and said that its been breathing quite heavy and gave me advice on what I should do before taking the head off, so googling it ive come up with your post,

So what you are saying is to take all the breather bits and bobs off the old na and put them on the 19j as it was on the old na engine, and if that is the case what did you do with the breather pipe that comes from the back of the engine?

Sorry if ive misunderstood but could do with some help here, a lot of the landy forums have frightened me ****less about breathing problems on 19js and don't want to see in destroy itself inside 500 miles

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Hi, welcome to the forum. If you do a search on the land rover 19J you'll be familiar with the reputation they have for cracking pistons and many people don't like them and fit a tdi instead. My 19J was rebuilt by myself a couple of years ago so I know it has no cracked pistons or anything else wrong,  I didn't want to fit an engine that old without giving it a rebuild. Some people just vent the engine to the atmosphere but that will lead to oil leaks and oil vapour under the bonnet. My set up works well and I have no liquid oil getting into the air filter. So yes, in my view I would swap the system from your 2.5 NA to your 19J. I would also seriously consider pulling the head off to inspect the pistons and decide if you want to spend the money on that engine before you go any further. 

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46 minutes ago, monkie said:

Hi, welcome to the forum. If you do a search on the land rover 19J you'll be familiar with the reputation they have for cracking pistons and many people don't like them and fit a tdi instead. My 19J was rebuilt by myself a couple of years ago so I know it has no cracked pistons or anything else wrong,  I didn't want to fit an engine that old without giving it a rebuild. Some people just vent the engine to the atmosphere but that will lead to oil leaks and oil vapour under the bonnet. My set up works well and I have no liquid oil getting into the air filter. So yes, in my view I would swap the system from your 2.5 NA to your 19J. I would also seriously consider pulling the head off to inspect the pistons and decide if you want to spend the money on that engine before you go any further. 

thanks for the advice, I can honestly say I must have read every forum and blog available on google and have every intention of pulling the head off, unfortunately everybody has a different opinion on what engine does what and why.

what did you do with the breather coming from the back off the block, where did you fit that, what you say makes sense but that back breather is still leaves me a bit bereft, you cant blank it off, it has got to go somewhere, thanks again and all the best

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Leave as is, is what I did. The older 19j engines (up to about 1987 I think, probably not many left now) had a very poor breather set up which was slightly modified to what I guess is what you are describing (pipe from the rear of the block to the rocker cover). This I think was to allow better breathing from the crankcase to the top where the gasses are pulled into the induction system; instead of having to go via the pushrod galleries and carrying more oil through. Check the condition of this pipe, clean it then put it back securly, don't blank it off or the gasses have no choice but to go via the pushrod galleries which land rover found out in the 1980s isn't ideal. 

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Here is a link  my 19J rebuild, one of the pistons in particular was in a right mess. 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/22/2019 at 10:16 PM, monkie said:

,Here is a link  my 19J rebuild, one of the pistons in particular was in a right mess. 

Hello fella, had a look at your link, quite impressive to say the least

Thanks for the info and has definitely and finally made sense, ill tell you what it was, I have or had a two spigot filler cap on the 19j im trying to fit and you are telling me to leave the rocker cover breather in situ, I suppose im quite lucky as I do have a couple of 19js engines kicking around(not that I paid any attention to them) and the MOD 12j, you know when you suddenly get that lightbulb feeling, as simple as this, took the rocker cover off with the spigot back and left of the of the cover, and an old pipe that was with one of the other engines and the lightbulb came on, so I followed your plan with the MOD 12j sump and breather equipment and it all seems to look like I know what im talking about, so thanks, I haven't fired her up yet, still waiting on my turbo getting back which should be by the end of next week, so if you don't mind and your interested ill let you know how it all goes, the other thing is am introducing a catch can which im sure your going to say is not needed but belt and braces fella.

The only thing and concern to me is after looking at your link about your rebuild and with all that effort and obvious expense you still found it necessary to still modify the breather system, my old na never had any breathing problems, just a swirl chamber doing its thing flat out at 45mph, a compression test says that the "new 19j" is sound although the fact it has been sat around doing bugger all for 6 months lends to change the head gasket and check the pistons(done almost everything else) once shes up and running, but have these 19js got a big problem with the breathers? Someone has also said the run really hot, is that the case as well? ill leave you alone after this, promise!!! all the best

Edited by stevebus
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19J suffer from heat stress which due to no intercooler can & does cause piston & cylinder head cracks, my 19J died of 3 cracked pistons & cylinder head cracks around 102000iles, it wasn't mistreated, it was replaced with a new 200tdi in mid 1994.

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4 minutes ago, western said:

19J suffer from heat stress which due to no intercooler can & does cause piston & cylinder head cracks, my 19J died of 3 cracked pistons & cylinder head cracks around 102000iles, it wasn't mistreated, it was replaced with a new 200tdi in mid 1994.

did it show signs of any problems or just do its thing, any temperature gauge clues or what

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Provided that the cooling system is in good shape I am not aware of any tendancies for the 19J to run hot under normal use. As Western points out in the post above, the 19J is not known to be the most reliable engine land rover built, the 200 tdi incorporated a number of design modifications such as intercooler, ladder frame and different breather system to name just a few.

In many ways it does makes sense to either stick with a good old 12J as a plodder or go for a tdi. The reason I rebuilt a 19J is because I wanted my late 1980s 110 to have the engine it was made with. To give my 19J the best chance, I give it regular oil and filter changes (at least twice a year) and I also advise replacing the injectors if the age of yours are unknown. Hot spots in the combustion can occur from a poor spray irregular pattern from worn injectors which can lead to serious engine damage. 

I'm a little confused about your catch tank as the breather system I set up from the military engines returns to oil to the sump. Maybe I've not understood you correctly? 

Keep us all updated with your progress. There is a great bunch of folks on this forum with knowledge and experience second to none. 

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10 hours ago, stevebus said:

did it show signs of any problems or just do its thing, any temperature gauge clues or what

 

I noticed some thick oily sludge on the ground under the air filter, can't remember if the temp gauge moved, it was over 20 years ago. As well as cracked head, pistons, the head gasket had gone to, I wasn't worth rebuilding as the cost including garage labour worked out not much less than a brand new 200tdi repower kit, which is still fitted & got rebuilt by me at the end of 2017, best engine LR have made IMHO. 

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