Daragh Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Hello, First time user and a novice so please be gentle and make any replies simple enough for an idiot to understand! I am attempting to start my Rover 3.5 V8 which I have just finished fitting MS1 to. It started once, ran very rough and very rich and then stopped after about 2-3 mins. I have not been able to start it again. Plugs are soaking when I take them out. I have dried left out to try and dry out cylinders and they are soaked again next attempt. Unfortunately, I cannot see what settings are on the ECU and if there is anything obviously wrong there, as the ECU does not power up on ignition (ie none of the three red lights on ECU light up) and so laptop connot connect. It did work when the engine was running and the ECU lights flickered. The ECU strangely also appears to flash once, a single flash, when cranking and then nothing. I have checked 12v ignition switch feed (blue / white wire from relay to ECU) and it shows power on/off with ignition on/off is working fine. So power is getting to ECU but not powering up. I am hopeful that someone has come across this before. Would it be a problem with ECU? Thank you in advance. Daragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lo-fi Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Hello Have you given the ECU some really good earths? If you can see 12v on the feed, that's the other place to check. Failing that, best thing to do here is go to back to basics. Pull the ecu, feed it 12v on the bench and see what happens. The DB37 connectors are not hard to get hold of, so setting up a little test rig is quite easy too. The power regulator circuit inside isn't complicated and quite easy to fault find - in fact it's the first thing you build when making one from parts, so there's a lot of good guidance in the manual. But check the earthing first, and see if it fires up and the laptop will connect on the bench before pulling it apart. When it powers up, you should see the fuel pump led light up for a second or so, and the laptop will connect so long as the ecu is powered. A, little more info about the setup, particularly the ignition setup, would be really helpful too please. /Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Slow and methodical approach needed - don't start pulling stuff apart or changing 5 things at once! Start with the basics: - Did it run on EFI before you switched to MS or is this a fresh install? - Is the ECU known good, programmed with the right settings (base map), and where did you get it from (just so we know what we're dealing with) - Does the ECU communicate with the laptop? - Does the fuel pump run? If this is a fresh install there's about 98% chance you've got a wiring or plumbing problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 Hi Guys, Thanks for replies. Lo Fi Have you given the ECU some really good earths? If you can see 12v on the feed, that's the other place to check. So, to check the earths ..... I guess I should just trace the existing earths from the ECU / D37 connector plug and make sure they are connected to chassis properly? Is there a way of making sure or would it be a good idea to run a fresh stand alone wire from earth side of ECU D37 plug to a solid earth on chassis to check? Setting up a test rig, I am afraid i'll fry the ECU! So to set up a rig do I simply....... Just give it a 12v feed in the normal place as per D37 diagram ie blue/white wire space from Nigels original installation instructions (see attached). I guess I would also need an earth, so I should connect an earth to one of the Ground connector on the D37. If this is correct what lights should I see? I guess I should just plug into PC and see if it will connect! Sorry if this comes across as simplistic, but as I said, I'm very much a novice. Fridge Freezer: Did it run on EFI before you switched to MS or is this a fresh install? Yes it ran on efi before. The only difference is new plenum with later hotwire injectors. I got this from Nigle (Hybrid from hell) - Is the ECU known good, programmed with the right settings (base map), and where did you get it from (just so we know what we're dealing with) I got this from Nigle (Hybrid from hell) - Does the ECU communicate with the laptop? No. That is part of the problem. I can't see the ECU settings. It appeared to connect to the laptop the only single time when it started, but I only got as far as looking at the dashboard guages and the first setting 'engine constants' which was strangely blank. Then the engine stopped. I thought I had done something wrong so closed it down, hoping that the next time I got it started I would check it again, but alas, it has not started again so I cannot check it. As mentioned a single light flashes once when cranking but computer does not connect up. - Does the fuel pump run? Yes fuel pump runs. It primes and stops with ignition and then runs constantly when cranking. There does appear to be fuel getting to engine as plugs are wet. FYI I did not attempt to connect into the existing system myself, it was done as a favour by friends, friend who is an automotive electrician. Unfortunately, he is not in a position to be able to check it! Thank you both for your help. I hope my comments explain further. To be sake, I will wait for your reply LoFi as I dont want to fry ECU or do something stupid. Thanks, D Megasquirt D37 ECU Connection Plug Wiring.docx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 If your ECU came from Nigel it will have been tested & working before it left him - it's possible you've managed to blow it up in the meantime but unlikely. How competent/confident are you with wiring & do you own a multimeter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 Hi, Honestly, I'm not very strong on electrics, hence why I got someone else to do the final connect up. However, I have been learning or at least trying to learn as I am going through this project. So, I have a multi meter and am willing to try if you don't mind being patient and basic. So if you could make suggestion I will definitely give it a go. As a first step should I do what Lo Fi suggested and if so, are my assumptions / queries in my reply suitable? If not please advise course of action. Thank you, D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagmire Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 I'd do a google on MSextra.com for the basic serial connection tests to see if your MS is alive on some level and responsive at all. If not, then as above its time to crack out the muiltimeter and/or call HFH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Quagmire - it's not a bad serial connection if the ECU isn't firing up at all. I am still voting this as a wiring fault, hence wanting to know if Daragh can use a multimeter to poke about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 I had posted earlier but i says 'Hidden for some reason. Post is below. Just to clarify a point from earlier post Fridge Freezer, ECU did appear to work when the engine started and ran for the short time. The LEDs lit up and the guages worked on the PC, but the connection appears to have stopped once the engine stopped ie ECU operational when engine running. Posted 4 hours ago · Hidden Hi, Honestly, I'm not very strong on electrics, hence why I got someone else to do the final connect up. However, I have been learning or at least trying to learn as I am going through this project. So, I have a multi meter and am willing to try if you don't mind being patient and basic. So if you could make suggestion I will definitely give it a go. As a first step should I do what Lo Fi suggested and if so, are my assumptions / queries in my reply suitable? If not please advise course of action. Thank you, D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Doing as LoFi suggests is reasonable - feed it (FUSED) 12v on the bench, it should come to life & talk to a laptop. Fuse can be ~1A, it doesn't draw much power. On the flipside you can probe the 37-Way connector with the ECU disconnected to check voltages / continuity on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 Thanks guys, OK, I will attempt a bench test,12v fused in and earthed out of the other side of 37 way connector and let you know how I get on. With regard to continuity testing, I can confirm that when I switch the ignition on, there is power registering at the 37 way connector. I have done this with a light tester. Is this continuity testing? I will try and test and see if I can check voltage. Is there anything else I can check? Thanks again, Daragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Hi Guys, I prepped to do the above and had everything ready, but before doing it I went back to basics and attempted connecting up to ECU once more. I did it through Tunerstudios ECU search and hey presto, it worked. I can now see settings. Strangely the LED light still only flashes one when cranking and then stays off. I had cleaned plugs and left them out to dry out cylinders. Now that I knew the ECU was showing the settings I turned over engine. It kicked, coughed, back fired a few times and then stopped. There is obviously something very wrong. I guess I will have to go back over all the wiring and make sure everything is correct. It is probably very general question, but if symptoms point to anything obvious, please advise. Thank you again, Daragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Ignition leads in the wrong position. Put the plugs in an oven for 10minutes and refit while still warm, helps get these V8s going when cylinders are fouled with fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Hi Bowie69, I have checked leads a few times to make sure, but will do again. Havnt heard the oven trick, but will give it a try. Thanks, Daragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 V8's don't like fouled plugs, you may end up buying a new set. However, you still want to go back to basics and double-check the wiring (especially coils as that lot is easy to mis-wire): - With 12v on the ECU you should now have comms, yes? - If TunerStudio is working you can datalog the cranking attempt and post up here - not sure if the forum allows log file uploads, it not use dropbox / pastebin or somesuch or PM me and I'll host it. - If you only get one flash when cranking it suggests no PIP signal from the EDIS. If you're getting a spark then there's an issue between EDIS and ECU, if you're not getting a spark I'd suspect VR sensor wiring - it's common to get the VR wires reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 Hi Fridge Freezer, Thanks a mill for the help. V8's don't like fouled plugs, you may end up buying a new set. I bought a new set before trying starting this, but if that might help, I will go shopping. However, you still want to go back to basics and double-check the wiring (especially coils as that lot is easy to mis-wire): I am going to have a check through the complete wiring especially the coils. - With 12v on the ECU you should now have comms, yes? Yes, I have comms. I can see settings and guages react under cranking and the attempted start. - If TunerStudio is working you can datalog the cranking attempt and post up here - not sure if the forum allows log file uploads, it not use dropbox / pastebin or somesuch or PM me and I'll host it. I will do a bit of work first and then see if I can sort a datalog to post (thanks for offing to post etc.) - If you only get one flash when cranking it suggests no PIP signal from the EDIS. If you're getting a spark then there's an issue between EDIS and ECU, if you're not getting a spark I'd suspect VR sensor wiring - it's common to get the VR wires reversed. I will check PIP wiring. I will confirm if there is a spark, butt as it tries to start, coughs and back fires I would guess that it is getting a spark. For the same reason, I felt that the VR sensor wiring was correct, butt I can easily switch these and see. I have also ordered a timing light and a compression tester. I hope these will discount other possible problems. I guess I will have a busy time later on in the week when I go at this again. Thank you again for the direction, suggestions and support. Regards, Daragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Coil wiring is very easy to get wrong, especially as the Ford coils have numbers/letters on them that don't correspond to the EDIS-8 wiring and the connectors are "upside-down" to what you might expect. Ask me how I learnt This is how my coils are wired, I believe the same scheme that's in Nige's instructions: Following the EDIS wiring colours the two coil plugs should look like this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 Thanks a mil, you must have given those photos to Nigel, they are the exact photos I use as a reference. Tks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Good evening all, So it is official. I am an idiot. I am another one of 'those people' who wired the coils incorrectly!! I swore that it would not happen to me. How difficult could it be. I checked and rechecked! So, this evening I took the pictures and looked again. It seemed to be that it was only when I drew them on a piece of paper that it made sense. Go figure. So good news, wires switched, new plugs and she fired up immediately. Ticking over too high at 1200 but at this moment I really don't care. Nearly 12 months to the day and she now runs. Happy boy. Thank you to everyone for the help and suggestions. I may bother you guys again for tuning help. Actually, is the upgrade for Tunerstudios worth it / suitable for MS1? Thanks again Daragh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Everyone does it, welcome to the club And yes, Tunerstudio is WAY better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 What Bowie said - we've all done it! Congrats on getting it running, everything else is "just" tuning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Cheers .... just to clarify, I meant the upgraded version of the basic free Tunerstudio ie MS upgrade edition or MS ultra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Ah with you, I think the only difference between MS or Ultra that I would use is the log viewer, maybe the trim tune, but who knows I see the prices have shot up a bit, which is a shame, I don't think you will use much more than the MS version.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daragh Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Fair enough. Tks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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