SanDiego110 Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Just wondering how long I should expect to crank the engine before it starts up when it is cold (cold being 70 degrees F OAT). It takes two consecutive 5-second cranks before she starts up. I feel like this is too long, considering the Yanmar diesel on my sailboat takes no more than a second, cold start. Once the engine (Defender, not sailboat) is warm, I can shut it off and restart it with just one second of cranking. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Some people's homes aren't that warm in the UK! The older Land Rover diesels need a good bit of pre-heat with the glow plugs, I would expect about 5-10 seconds from "cold". Your Yanmar is either direct injection or has functioning glow plugs. Your glow plugs may not be working correctly as my TD bursts into life on the second crank even at sub zero temperatures. Firstly with a volt meter, check for 12V at the terminals when energised by an assistant. Them take them out and test them by energising them one by one. They should glow yellow at the tips after around 5 seconds of 12 V applied. If no good, replace. In my experience cheap glow plugs are a waste of time. I only use Beru. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bougie-de-prechauffage-BERU-gv602-pour-Citroen-Fiat-Ford-Land-rover-opel-peugeot/273028470506?hash=item3f91c3d6ea:g:ZOkAAOSwa5JZdm2P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 It's not the glow plugs. In my experience, almost all starting hesitancy on LR diesels from the 10J to the 300Tdi is air getting into the engine end of the fuel system, allowing the fuel to drain back down to the tank. The cranking is a period of self-purging before the fuel is injected. Check every fuel union, the injector pipe ends, the copper washers on the spill rail, the filter O-rings and any other potential source of air ingress (which is much easier to have and harder to find than fuel egress). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 ^^^Yes, very true about the air in the fuel causing this difficult starting. But in my experience even in the temperatures described from a cold start (unlike the Tdi engines) the 2.5TD needs a little pre-heat other wise you will be turning it over a number of time until it fires up as described. So I believe it very much could be a problem the glow plugs and they are worth checking as described. I think it is very wise to check both as this will cost you nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 My 12J would start instantly after days of standing in -5oC with no preheat. My Tdis did the same in that -17 cold snap we had a few years ago. I think the glow plugs may help if the engine isn't in great health, and I'm sure they make it slightly smoother and more efficient initially, but I don't think they should be required in a healthy engine except in extreme climates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Not to mention a strong battery too... if your battery isn't turning the engine over quick enough it can have the symptom of slow to start. If your battery is healthy you get a pretty positive and strong engine turn over. As well as I had a brit-part starter at one point and it always took a handful of cranks to start the engine - down to what I presume as the above issue, not turning over quick enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanDiego110 Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 So I checked to see if the plugs were getting power (that was easier than tracking down air getting into fuel lines), and there is no power with key in start position (engine off) nor with the engine running. A bit of history here: After replacing the head gasket (and glow plugs) I tried to start the engine not knowing that one of the glow plug wire terminal connectors was contacting the engine block. Not aware of this, I repeatedly held the ignition in start and crank (getting no response from starter), until smoke rose from the dash behind the steering wheel. I think it was monkie that helped me track down the short. After bending the terminal away from the block, it cranked over and started. So I'm assuming there isn't a fuse for the glowplugs since it should have blown before smoking electrical items happened. I think I may have burnt up something on the ignition switch, but the switch still works for starting the engine. Oh and another possibly related clue: the coolant temp gauge doesn't work. I replaced the transmitter on the head, that didn't fix it. So is there a fuse I should check? Should I look at the ignition switch? Something else that I am clueless about? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 I've had around 30 12j and 19j Defenders, none would start without some preheat from glowplugs. If you have shorted out the wire from the switch to the glowplugs, there is no fuse it's a direct connection and you have most likely melted the wire - you have been very lucky if you haven't also melted a lot of other wires around it. Easiest solution is to run a new wire from switch to plugs. Personally, I would have the dash out to inspect the loom as there is a risk of a proper fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Exactly as Eightpot says, no fuse. The circuit for the glow plugs on pre Tdi diesel engines is very simple: The positive terminal from the battery goes directly to the starter motor terminal as the main feed. A brown wire goes from this positive terminal to the ignition switch. From there it is a brown wire with a red trace to the glow plugs. Best thing to do is to discontect the battery, connect a new wire (rated high enough for the amps, I think I used a 60 amp cable but double check the capacity as I can't remember) from the starter motor feed to the ignition switch and test continuity from the switch to ensure your ignition switch isn't dead. Then a new wire from the switch to the glow plugs. I would still take out the glow plugs and energise them to visually check how they glow and also check the fuel lines as Snagger suggests for a belt and braces approach. Finally, have you been charging your battery as a partly charged one won't be helping you out either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 The engines should always start on the first revolution. If they do not, it has not had enough glow time for the temperature, or there is something wrong. 70 F is normal room temperature. I'm not sure on what planet that is thought to be cold. No glow is needed until 40 F. As to your test above, the glow plugs are not powered in the "ON" position. There is a position between ON and START that the glow happens. You should see a light on the dash come on when it is happening. It is a good idea to read the owner's manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Red90 said: I'm not sure on what planet that is thought to be cold. Mercury, Venus....! Seriously, its all relative. In my experience on 3 or 4 19J engines plus other indirect injection diesels ranging from clapped out to newly rebuilt and all will take a few cranks over to start on a british summer day of around 21'C if no pre-heat is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 We will have to agree to disagree on that one. When setup properly they should fire within half a second of the starter engaging. Never use glow until close to freezing. I'll guarantee that I know a lot more about cold starting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Red90 said: I'll guarantee that I know a lot more about cold starting... A Canadian winter - I'll agree on that! All I can add is that every single indirect injection diesel engine (even from new from the factory) with an iron block and iron head [* that I have driven] will not fire up with no pre-heat within 1 or 2 revolutions. Direct injection - yes. Must be the fuel sold in the South West?! Edited February 16, 2018 by monkie [* that I have driven] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Last weekend it was -5 and people were walking around in short and t-shirts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally V8 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 21 minutes ago, monkie said: A Canadian winter - I'll agree on that! All I can add is that every single indirect injection diesel engine (even from new from the factory) with an iron block and iron head will not fire up with no pre-heat within 1 or 2 revolutions. Direct injection - yes. Must be the fuel sold in the South West?! Back in the day we had nearly new 90 and 110's with the TD engine. I also had quite a few on the books for servicing belonging to other customers and companies. They all needed their glow plugs for a cold start,they all needed a correctly tensioned timing belt to make power and not smoke. TDI's changed most of that except for the EDC equipped Auto Discovery 300's which also needed their glow plugs to start from cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 38 minutes ago, Red90 said: Last weekend it was -5 and people were walking around in short and t-shirts. Sounds like Newcastle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 I do wonder if the diesel is indeed more volatile to aid starting in these cold places.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Having the timing just right is the important thing. If you are a bit retarded, cold starting is poor. "Real" diesels have device to advance the timing during cold starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 51 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: I do wonder if the diesel is indeed more volatile to aid starting in these cold places.... I only know of anti waxing agents routinely added to diesel fuel in cold climates. I guess that some agents that raise the cetane rating of the fuel would have an effect on cold starting. Other than the more expensive premium fuels like Shell V-power I don't know if such agents are added to diesel fuel by the supplier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanDiego110 Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Well I found the short at the ignition switch. Assuming I can fix it and get power to the glowplugs, we shall soon have an answer to this "hot" topic. Red90 bets it will still crank over several seconds before starting since heat isn't required unless we're in Siberia, and monkie bets it will fire up much quicker with functioning glowplugs, even though I'm is sunny San Diego. Did I get that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, monkie said: I only know of anti waxing agents routinely added to diesel fuel in cold climates. I guess that some agents that raise the cetane rating of the fuel would have an effect on cold starting. Other than the more expensive premium fuels like Shell V-power I don't know if such agents are added to diesel fuel by the supplier. They do not add any de-waxing agents. They distill the diesel lighter, more towards kerosone as it gets colder. Cetane is basically controlled to meet the government minimums with additives. The fuel loses energy in the winter by around 10% with the distillation shift. Like I said earlier, there is no way glow plugs are needed at 70 F. You have a different problem. Edited February 17, 2018 by Red90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 I disagree entirely with Eightpot and Monkie, I'm afraid. A 12J or 19J in good order will fire instantly from weeks of standing cold in freezing conditions without glow plugs. Mine always did, over 13 years and more than 100,000 miles use, just like my two Tdis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Red90 said: They do not add any de-waxing agents. They distill the diesel lighter, more towards kerosone as it gets colder. Cetane is basically controlled to meet the government minimums with additives. The fuel loses energy in the winter by around 10% with the distillation shift. In North America, yes I think this is the case. However, in Europe it is not. Additives are blended with the fuel at the refinery in winter months to inhibit formation of wax crystals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 This is really interesting topic, you can't beat a bit of good friendly debate. I'm looking forward to hearing the outcome when SanDiego110 gets the glow plugs working as they should do. My current 19J was completely rebuilt 18 months ago and has even compression within the original specifications, correct timing and rocker adjustment plus reconditioned injectors. The only part that could possibly come into question is the injection pump as this has not been rebuilt and tested, so I guess it could be argued that the advance mechanism might not be upto scratch. If I attempt to start it with no glow plugs it will take several turns to fire up. If I use around 10 seconds of pre-heat it bursts into life just like a Tdi on 1 turn and settles down to a nice smooth (for a diesel) idle. I looked this up and the concesous on line from various sources is that a disadvantage of indirect injection diesels over direct injection is that they will need glow plugs to pre heat the air in the swirl chamber as it looses a lot of the heat from compression unlike in direct injection diesels. I have a cement mixer with an indirect injection diesel engine on it and you have to add a squirt of oil in a chamber to temporarily raise the compression for a cold start. So I guess the debate really is what counts as a cold start. I would argue that it is simply starting the engine when the block and head are at ambient temperature and not warm from a previous run is a cold start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotts90 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Next cold snap I'm going to pull the glow plug relay to see if there's any difference on a stone cold engine. My 200 usually catches on the 2nd revolution after preheat. Always let the light extinguish through habitual use of diesels! With regards to fuel leak back, could you temporarily fit a clear inline filter to give an instant visual indication if the fuel has drain back over night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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