Mo Murphy Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Morning all, So I've searched on the forum about fuel pumps, seems the P38 4.0 in tank pump will fit with shortening of the legs. Most of the advice seems anecdotal or hypothetical and a good few years back which is fine but is anyone running a TD5 90 now with an efi in tank pump. I use an 300 tdi ROW in tank pick up at the mo which I would have liked to have kept after the conversion but the pumping arrangement seems complicated with lift pumps, efi pumps and swirl pots et al. Is it still the case that I'd need all these? Forgive my ignorance but it's nearly 20 years since I last had an 8 and we used carbs then (only the big boys could afford efi engines then 😉) Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 I agree an in-tank pump is the ideal solution. Swirls pots and the like are way overkill when you have a simple solution staring at you in the face. Appreciate the TD5 tank is a different shape, but the normal way would be to take an RRC pump (or just about any EFI pump actually) and graft it onto what you currently have in the tank. So basically, gut the TD5 pump from its basket and pop the V8 pump in instead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerslave Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Evening, Mo. I'm working through a TD5 110 conversion to a Thor 4.6 V8 at the moment and coincidentally, I am about to drop out the tank and see what my options are. I have the fuel pump from Nige on this page which seems to be what you are describing. https://www.megasquirt-v8.co.uk/ms_thor.php I ordered the whole Megasquirt kit from Nige so a Fuel Pressure Relief Valve is going to be winging its way to me in the not too distant future (I hope). This setup seems simple and it doesn't require a return line. With that in mind, I am not sure whether I am going to run a new fuel line while I have everything apart. I also don't yet know what to do about fuel filter placement. Some of the guys on here have done some very informative threads, so I plan to reread. I tend to get distracted by the sexy V8-ness and miss the mondain stuff. You don't say what kind of fueling arrangement the engine has. Keep in mind that I am very Thorcentric. regards Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Could you not use a Disco 1 V8 fuel pump Mo - PRC9409 I think? Seems to be a few variants. I thought they used the same in-tank mounting method as the later Defender tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerslave Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 Will be interesting if they do. As I said, I have an in-tank pump from Nige, but I will need to fab up a plate to make it fit. I'm also of a mind to sell the TD5 110 Tank, pump, piping, filter housing assembly etc and start again with a tank that is meant for a petrol 110 (if such a thing exists). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 25, 2018 Author Share Posted March 25, 2018 Thank you Gentlemen, all food for thought. I'll be running the 3.9 on hotwire initially. I agree Ian, James and Bowie that the in tank solution does seem to be the simplest, standard, cost effective solution and does have overwhelming support. I suppose the tank has got to come out anyway to be cleaned out so I might as well put the pump in it while it's out. Thanks again for your input. Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerslave Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 How are you getting on, Mo? Further to some very helpful stuff posted by Dave W and FridgeFreezer, Santa (strewth mate!) on my build thread and Retroanaconda above, I was prompted to do some more googling and found these part numbers on another forum. I think the 110 one has also been mentioned on a previous old thread on here. My understanding is that these are straight swaps for the existing TD5 pump, but meant for the 300Tdi ROW spec Defenders. They leave one free to use any electric fuel pump. I like it because there is no fabbing to do and the external pump is accessible for service etc. For the 90, it's WQB100430 (see a picture here)110, is WQB100440 (picture) In addition, though, Dave W said that the Disco II one should also fit, so I am tempted to drop the Disco donor vehicle tank and see what condition it is in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Hi Ian, I'm already using the ROW pick up in my 90 tank, thus the thrust of my original question 😊 Reading more, whilst the idea of dropping an original V8 pump in is appealing, I have a TD5 90 tank which seems to mean that I would have to shorten any that I fitted as they are more shallow. A bit of faff as any replacement would also have to be shortened and replacement would require dropping the tank, not so good in a Spanish lay by with a full tank. On the other hand as I originally said, it appeared from reading posts that if I wanted to use the ROW pick up then I would need an electrical lift pump as well as a high pressure pump as the high pressure items don't lift fuel. Unless, of course, there is high pressure pump that is able to lift fuel from the tank. If there was such an item then that would be the ideal solution. No rush though, this is a project for when the weather warms up. Cheers Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerslave Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Ooops - yes, I realise now that the ROW thingy was in your original post. I have been reading a lot of different stuff. I'm going to drop out the Disco II pump over the next day or so and see if it is a direct fit. I'll let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I think a point in all of this that may have got lost, is that you can buy almost any EFI pump and find that they are fundamentally the same, and graft it onto whatever assembly you have there already. Not knowing what the ROW pickup is like, you could even adapt that. Suggestion for using the early RRC pump is that it is a known route, and a LOT cheaper than any of the pumps that include a new fuel basket and sender. You can certainly get external EFI pumps though, for you that may make sense. I've not looked locally, but Holley make some decent stuff, with pre and post filters available you can build what you need, and fix to the inside of the chassis rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 E.g. https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Product.do?method=view&n=1542&p=547690&d=124&c=4&l=2&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=Fuel Pumps&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjP3fqcKM2gIVT40bCh3xsAwOEAQYASABEgJIOvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds With most EFI pumps you still want them below fuel level for less strain on them, on a LR that should be too tricky though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Bowie69 said: With most EFI pumps you still want them below fuel level for less strain on them, on a LR that should be too tricky though. A lot will actually burn out if they're not either submerged or force-fed from a lift pump or by gravity. Andy (Moglite) burnt two Subaru pumps out by mounting them above the tank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Yup, that's no good at all Technically, once the syphon is set up they are gravity fed when below the fuel level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) No need to use an in tank pump or a lift pump, just use an external EFi pump, they'll lift the short distance needed for the task without any problem (unless you're thinking of fitting the pump in the roof !) I use the same pump for my LS1 and my TD5 (well, the same part number anyway) without any issues, both external, both mounted above the chassis and both with pre and post filters. After market pumps will normal state the lift capability and as long as you stay within that you'll be fine. An external pump is easier to maintain and having a pre filter pretty much means it should last forever. I tend to use Sytec pumps, the Bosch 044 is the business but VERY noisy while the Sytec equivalent is cheaper and quieter. fuelpumpsonline are a good source of info and do some really nice inline canister filters...https://www.fuelpumpsonline.co.uk Once you've decided on a pump model number just check the price elsewhere, sometimes they are competitive on price, sometimes not so much ! Edited March 27, 2018 by Dave W 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 Thanks Gents, much food for thought. Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerslave Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Just to check my thinking...... I like the idea of the basic/ROW pickup and sender in the tank, a pre and post filter and a Sytec 044 equivalent. MS could (obviously) easily switch the pump. With this setup, though, I would need a PRV at the engine end to get the correct fuel pressure for the engine. If the Disco II one does indeed fit, then I won't need a PRV as there is an integral fuel pressure regulator as part of the pump. Is this the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Powerslave said: Just to check my thinking...... I like the idea of the basic/ROW pickup and sender in the tank, a pre and post filter and a Sytec 044 equivalent. MS could (obviously) easily switch the pump. With this setup, though, I would need a PRV at the engine end to get the correct fuel pressure for the engine. If the Disco II one does indeed fit, then I won't need a PRV as there is an integral fuel pressure regulator as part of the pump. Is this the case? Yes, as far as I know all the Thor pump/sender units have the regulators built in. Fitting an aftermarket regulator isn't an issue though and you can also hook the regulator up to the inlet so it can boost the fuel pressure at high engine loads. The Disco II unit will fit, you might want to make an access panel though so you don't have to drop the fuel tank to get to it if it fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Looking here: https://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/land-rover-discovery/discovery-2/parts/fuel-system/fuel-pumps-and-senders/wfx101070-pump-assyfuel-v8-efi-disco-2.html The pic shows some flexible bits of what looks like spring steel, if you were putting it in a shorter TD5 90 tank, then it may just squash up into place. another good pic here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Discovery-2-Tank-Fuel-Pump-Level-Sender-Sensor-V8-Petrol-98-04-OEM/271266896589?fits=Model%3ADiscovery|Plat_Gen%3AMK+II&hash=item3f28c45acd:g:HS8AAMXQHeBSHlCj and a used one with more pics here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OEM-Land-Rover-Discovery-2-V8-In-Tank-Fuel-Pump-4-0L-V8-WFX101060/273090989574?hash=item3f957dce06:g:7kwAAOSw1zhacKnb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 The only issue I had with fitting a P38 sender into a 90 tank (Gems V8 rather than Thor) was that the fuel level sender seemed to be a different resistance range to the 90 gauge which mean that the fuel level gauge was all over the place. It's a while ago now but I vaguely recollect having to put a variable resistor in line with it to get it to read somewhere near. I had to modify the P38 unit to shorten it slightly but I think the Disco II is already short enough, the Disco I sender I have now needed no modification at all to fit the 90 Defender tank although, again, I'm not sure about the Disco fuel level sender - I built my own controller that monitors and displays the levels in both tanks simultaneously and drives the dash fuel gauge according to whichever tank is being used. The controller is calibrated in 5 litre sets for tank so I don't think I ever tried it direct to the gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerslave Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I removed the pump from the Disco II this afternoon. It is pictured on the left against the TD5 110 one on the right. They certainly look interchangable, right down to the four pin connector. Interestingly, the retaining ring has BMW stamped on it. Both the diesel and the petrol items have the same clips for attaching fuel pipe. Does anyone know what they are called? Or if there is a company who can make me up a fuel pipe of a particular length with the fittings I need on each end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 29, 2018 Author Share Posted March 29, 2018 Hmmm, given my current set up then I'm going to stay with my plans for an external pump as Dave has recommended. The ROW pick up picks up fuel and reads correctly on the gauge, so I'll follow the old adage of if it isn't broke don't fix it 😊 Thank you Gentlemen for your time and sharing your collective knowledge. Mo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerslave Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Sounds good to me. Really interesting thread, Mo - glad you brought this subject up. I am temporarily going to go with the Disco II item (at least to begin with), as I already own it and it means I don't need a separate regulator. When my PRV turns up from Nige, I can easily get the ROW thingy and a Sytec 044 with associated filters. If anyone has the information, I still would like to know if I can get the Land Rover clip type connectors so I can make my own fuel pipes up (or have them made). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil110 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) Course there is always the pump from the 50th anniversary 4.0 90. https://www.brit-car.co.uk/search.php?query=esr3928&xBrand=&part_type=&xSupplierID=&product-sort=&xPerPage=10 As for the clips, have a talk to your local diesel injection specialist place, most of them will make up pipes and probably have clips in stock. I doubt Land Rover made their own, they will have bought them off a shelf somewhere Edited March 29, 2018 by neil110 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 I presume that is an under-seat tank then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: I presume that is an under-seat tank then? 50th Uses a Td5 type rear tub and chassis, so its a rear tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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