New Template for LR to use Re: Defender

[Chicken Drumstick]

So Jeep have recently launched their new JL Wrangler in the US. And according to Jeep UK we should be getting it in 2019.

The JL looks to be an evolutionary update of the JK, although the JK was a clean sheet design in 2005/6.


The JL clearly shows that there is indeed a market for a proper ladder chassis, live axle 4x4 off roader. And that it can be built to a modern comfort and safety level, without compromising the appeal and ability of the vehicle.

Clearly the Wrangler is aimed at the recreation market rather than utility. Although with such a design it's a fairly thin distinction on the differences and mostly comes down to spec and how the body is configured.

However it does clearly demonstrate that if Land Rover want to step upto the plate (and I can't understand why they wouldn't want too), a new modern 21st Cent Defender is fully possible, without being a blinged up over complicated posing machine.

As for the Jeep. It comes in a mix of SWB (96.9") 3 door and LWB (118.4") 5 door sizes, with an array of roof spec combinations. And US prices starting at $27k (likely to be raped by Jeep UK when it arrives here sadly and with less spec )

Dana 35 and 44 axles depending on model and spec. 33" tyres stock and lots of options including front & rear lockers, electronically detachable anti roll bars and a super low low range. As well as a host of electronic wizardry in the way of Hill Descent Control and TCS.

Engines look to be a 285hp 3.6 V8 with either a 6 speed manual or 8 speed auto. As well as a 2.0 litre petrol turbo and a 3.0 V6 diesel on the way.

Many of the past Jeep features remain, such as folding windscreen and removable doors and roof. Some now made lighter with aluminium, making them eaiser to remove or fold down.


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-YBe_8hYS98/maxresdefault.jpg

https://www.jeep.com/content/dam/fca-brands/na/jeep/en_us/2018/wrangler-jl/vlp-jl/gallery/2018-Jeep-Wrangler-JL-VLP-Gallery-Sahra-Interior.jpg.image.1440.jpg


https://medias.fcacanada.ca//sites/brand/jeep/images/menu-image-wrangler-jl_22e170058a4040ca5843772418391f90-retina.jpg


Modified 4 door to make a lwb 2 door, looks pretty slick.
https://www.dynatrac.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/DSC_8967-1024x684.jpg


Give up. Don’t know how to get the images to embed. It didn’t auto embed them. And IMG tags don’t seem to work. I’m on my iPhone so can’t hover over the icons on the editor to see if anything there would help. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Chicken Drumstick

[FridgeFreezer]

You mean like this?

 

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

Yeah I can do it for new posts. Just can’t seem to get it o work in the op. Not without cutting and reinserting each url. Which on a phone is too laborious. 

[Cynic-al]

I agree, the 5 door jeep rubicon is on my list of cars to own. From the factory it has off road tyres, front and rear lockers, disconnecting arb, v6 petrol and a low box. Only down side is it only comes in auto but I could live with that. New it's something like £36,000 which I think is reasonable as it's less than an Arctic Trucks pickup (around £45,000) and has better spec. I wanted one for my company car last time I changed but the BIK was horrific so I stuck with a pickup.

I doubt Land Rover will do a competitor for that, Jeep have a great home market with lots of enthusiasts who actually use them in the vast terrain they have available and they like the hammer technology rather than the oscilloscope technology.

Land Rover already have their own in house made 4 cyl 2.0 turbo diesel so that's bound to feature, they all ready have well developed off road electronics so that's bound to feature. Personally I like full time 4wd with a centre diff locks and axle locks or LSDs but I have to say the Land Rover traction control does perform better than the traction control in the pickups I've had so there must be something in it. Also on both the Top Gear and Grand Tour features the Land Rover Velar was the only one that didn't go into home of have some other problem.

I think the bottom line is they have limited production capacity, to sell to a utility company or farmer their competition is pickups which can be had for around £16k +vat. Do they want to use the capacity they have to make cars to sell to fleet buyers at £16k - £26k where someone who doesn't own it is going to hammer it to death meaning it will have to be robust to avoid lots of claims or school gate posers for £40k - £60k who might venture down a muddy lane from time to time then spend 6 hours washing it?

[FridgeFreezer]

56 minutes ago, Cynic-al said:

I think the bottom line is they have limited production capacity, to sell to a utility company or farmer their competition is pickups which can be had for around £16k +vat. Do they want to use the capacity they have to make cars to sell to fleet buyers at £16k - £26k where someone who doesn't own it is going to hammer it to death meaning it will have to be robust to avoid lots of claims or school gate posers for £40k - £60k who might venture down a muddy lane from time to time then spend 6 hours washing it?

People seem to miss this - LR can't make Range Rovers fast enough at the moment, at 100k a vehicle (with presumably a sturdy profit) why bother trying to churn out a few 30k utility trucks for a bunch of muddy ingrates who will complain it's not the same as a crusty old 90 because it conforms to various modern standards?

[Cynic-al]

As an international company I've been impressed with the investment they've put into the UK, the new engine plants and production lines, but you do wonder how much more they will do in the UK. I know China is becoming a more expensive place to make stuff but it's such a huge market and if you want cheap cheap there are other parts of the world to go at still. 

[Eightpot]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

People seem to miss this - LR can't make Range Rovers fast enough at the moment, at 100k a vehicle (with presumably a sturdy profit) why bother trying to churn out a few 30k utility trucks for a bunch of muddy ingrates who will complain it's not the same as a crusty old 90 because it conforms to various modern standards?

Yep, that's the reality.  You've only got to go down to Southampton docks & look at the truck and trainloads full of Discoveries/Rangies/jags filling transport ships one after another to see this formula is working very well them. 

You wonder when you look at a LR dealership now, exactly how another 'Defender'  with commercial leanings would be positioned in the line up - doesn't really fit anymore. 

A ruggedised D5 with some body tweaks would do the job, which if you look back at LRs track record, is probably what we'll get. 

 

[FridgeFreezer]

16 hours ago, Eightpot said:

 

A ruggedised D5 with some body tweaks would do the job, which if you look back at LRs track record, is probably what we'll get.

And that may not be a bad thing - remember the original Defender took the Range Rover running gear + plonked a series body on it. People like to think the Defender was "proper old fashioned" but at the time it was ground-breaking and modern, most of the other utility trucks are still running leaf springs even today.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I admit I quite like the look of the off roady Disco 5 SVX. But the price of it, it is not an "off" roader. And too unattainable (for me at least). Jeep prices might be expensive in the UK compared to the US. But you can still walk into a dealer and buy a used couple of year old one for a price starting with a 2.
 

As for coil springs, I agree. Not sure why they have never caught on for utility vehicles. Although some of the leaf sprung setups (leaf rear only) actually ride perfectly acceptably despite this.
 

The Defender wasn't all that ground breaking though, the only thing really unique apart from coil suspension was having a centre diff. But Rover only did this on the RR instead of making the axles better and stronger, split the load and the stock axles could cope. And many US makers have offered centre diffs over the years, usually as a cost option. Which has resulted in low uptake and often dropped from the line up. Hence mostly you only see 2wd/4wd setups rather than centre diffs.
 

Today's vehicles are quite different. And I'm not sure you can still get the same result just utilising their current drive-train bits.
 

Probably unpopular on here, but I actually like the DC100 concept vehicle. Visually I loved the styling. But it lacked a couple of key things. The biggest, it and the all of the current line up, just aren't "rugged". Too much plastic and too much bodywork.

Complex Terrain Response, independent suspension and air springs are all cool and allow a more road biased system to work better off road. But they are all costly and complex and still don't work as well off road as a good live axle setup with appropriate suspension and traction aids.

 

If they really want to do a parts bin special. Then I'd much rather see the old Rover axles (or better yet if LR asked Dana to use their D44's instead). with an optional rear locker and a simplified Terrain system, as basically on or off but include HDC.
 

Air suspension, I could take or leave. Maybe have as an option for top spec models, but with live axles it's only real purpose is ride height adjustment for on road use and self leveling capabilities.
 

Disco4 ladder chassis or new hydroformed chassis. And a more modern single piece body tub with configurable sections. Current engine selection would be fine, as would the transfer box from D4. And they could offer the ZF manual or auto box options.

[ianmayco68]

That Jeep 2door truck in the last link looks great , I think I’d buy one of those and Chicken Drumstick I agree with what you have said above but I honestly think that JLR if they do launch a new Defender are going to throw every electronic gizmo they can at it like the rest of the line up like Fridge Freezer says they can’t make Range Rovers quick enough, which is ok if you use it on road but if you go off Roading  or are a farmer at the top of a mountain whose going to go up and fix or get your truck down when all this electronic gizmos go wrong . Electronic things are ok as long as you can easily fault find and fix.

 

[Lewis]

Lots of electronics doesn’t have to mean it’s unreliable or hard to fix, but with JLR it invariably does.

Toyota Land Cruisers in their various guides also feature a lot of electronics, but they just don’t go wrong. My client has circa 570 Land cruisers and 30 D4’s. At present 7 D4’s are VOR, 2 Land cruisers are VOR (both were involved in RTAs)

The JLR reliability is atrocious, that alone would put me off a purchase 

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Lewis said:

The JLR reliability is atrocious, that alone would put me off a purchase 

Trouble is they don't have to get any better - the world is currently buying them faster than JLR can make them *despite* the reliability etc. etc. so why would they spend millions doing things better than they have to? No-one buying a £60k+ vehicle gives much of a monkeys what happens to it out of warranty / 10 years down the line.

LR can't turn stuff out in the volume Toyota can so they have to go for the lower volume / higher-end stuff. Ferraris aren't as reliable as a Corolla but no-one seems to care much about that either!

[neil110]

Haven't JLR got a shiny new production facility in Slovakia, that is standing empty?

Can't really compare them with jeep either. In the final years of defender production, jeep were selling more than 13 wranglers for every defender, roughly 200,000 versus 15,000

Edited May 4, 2018 by neil110

[Cynic-al]

They are re releasing the commercial land cruiser in the uk, not sure how popular it would be as you don' see many shogun or discovery commercials. Looks a sensible vehicle though.

Plastic bumpers isn't a problem as long as it' self coloured so it doesn't really show the scratches and has a bit of spring in it so it can take a few knocks and go back to shape. If they wanted to be really cleaver they could use clip off lower bumpers so that they give good aero dynamics for fuel economy on road but open up the approach / departure angle for offroad. They could have clip on points on the roof or wherever for storage whilst off-road. 

Would also be handy if replacements were affordable.

I wish they'd put an external locker on too for dirty gloves like on a wagon. They could duct it to the heater to dry your gloves

[Bowie69]

Those LC commercials look cracking for ~28k

[Scotts90]

The old "farmer up a mountain" is certainly a moot point in regards to electronics, if anyone has been in a modern tractor then they have enough electrickery to put most cars to shame. The most recent farm addition (MF7748) even runs two independent alternators for its systems...one can't cope. They're all diagnostics and info centres these days....

Ive toyed with the notion of a wrangler/Cherokee/jk, they share the endless customisation and adaptability that the defender does but this side of the pond lacks in the aftermarket availability...and buying spares from a jeep dealership makes genuine LR  parts look like the budget option!

Would be nice if it looked similar to the jeep above but I think deep down we all know it's going to have all the current ranges' corporate cues.

[Anderzander]

Ain’t that the truth about modern tractors ! 

[Gazzar]

11 hours ago, Scotts90 said:

The old "farmer up a mountain" is certainly a moot point in regards to electronics, if anyone has been in a modern tractor then they have enough electrickery to put most cars to shame. The most recent farm addition (MF7748) even runs two independent alternators for its systems...one can't cope. They're all diagnostics and info centres these days....

Ive toyed with the notion of a wrangler/Cherokee/jk, they share the endless customisation and adaptability that the defender does but this side of the pond lacks in the aftermarket availability...and buying spares from a jeep dealership makes genuine LR  parts look like the budget option!

Would be nice if it looked similar to the jeep above but I think deep down we all know it's going to have all the current ranges' corporate cues.

Soon we'll have to replace the family car, and I am seriously tempted to buy a 110 CSW.   There is NO WAY I'll buy a modern JLR product, but I'm probably not their target audience.  

Which is my main concern regarding the defender - the JLR group offerings are all the same - modern stylish expensive high maintenance vehicles, if the economy has a hic-up then their target market disappears overnight.

All their eggs are in one basket, and it's not the basket that the Defender and Series vehicles comes from.

 

 

[Scotts90]

I can see where your coming from, but JLR are not alone in their strategy. They don't make small cars like other major brands but focus on what they do, the freelander and now disco sport/evoque were their foray into smaller 4wd (note I didn't say affordable), JLR have the jag side of things to bolster their car portfolio so no need to produce a "car". 

Porsche aficionados weren't chuffed when they started making the cayenne as it was a dilution of the brand but they saw a market and went for it... they're now into the smaller territory with the  Macan. Lamborghini, Bentley and Maserati are now producing niche market SUVs so at least Landrover hasn't decided to produce a sportscar...

But had/having current Landrovers since the D2 was released up to the current D5 I assume I must be their target audience! Lol (be that good or bad!). I've tried other marques but always went back to a Discovery.