Anti-diesel measures in the UK - magazine article

[Snagger]

I thought this is worth reading for those considering a diesel engine rebuild or conversion: 

 

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/diesel-cars/460/diesel-tax-proposed-charges-and-surcharges-for-uk-drivers#London

 

The crux of it is that it probably still works out cost effective to use diesel if we're not going into city centres, but for regular city drivers, petrol is going to win in eventual total costs.  It's going to come down to fuel cost per mile vs cumulative city emission zone charges.  I have been looking at the ACR performance options on their 4 cylinder petrol engines, and all together, they're around Tdi levels.  That with an LPG kit could be a good option for those planning a new project - similar costs for fuel and similar performance, but without the punitive measures from central and city authorities and less noise and harshness.

I've never tried LPG, so have no idea how easy it is to use in practice, but this superficially looks like a safe method of getting decent performance without threat for a Series rebuild or even a Defender with a sickly Tdi.  I'm curious what those with experience of the ACR engines and of LPG reckon.

[mad_pete]

I had performance cylinder head, camshaft and carb on 4 cylinder engine it was awesome. LPG is fine as long as you can find somewhere to fill up. I couldn’t really tell difference between that and petrol. 

[Snagger]

I seem to recall, but possibly incorrectly, that LPG equipped cars are banned from the Channel Tunnel trains, making getting to Europe a bit slower and more expensive.  Is that correct/still the case?

[monkie]

You recall correctly, my friends and I ran into this a while ago when plannning a trip to Le Mans.

https://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/site-information/lpg/

[Daan]

It is just a wave of diesel hating, from the previous wave of diesel loving.

There are developments in the pipe line though:

https://www.enginetechnologyinternational.com/features/bosch-rde-tech.html

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

And on the flip side look at all the new diesels being launched in America. 

[Arjan]

LPG in the 2.25 engine is brilliant - had several back in Holland.

I don't care about the Tunnel - use the ferry for some relax eating, coffee and rest. And find it from our side usu. cheaper..

Phasing out diesel is going to be a challenge....

[Daan]

I used to run LPG in my series 3. It worked well, but in the UK your main challenge is going to be supply. Have to say though, a petrol engine with old fashioned carbs and points ain't going to be much good for the environment either. It probably won't be long before that isn't allowed in london either.

 

Daan

[Snagger]

Good points.  Those engines will need carbs, but can be run better with electronic ignition.  That helps performance, economy and reliability.  Running LPG is pretty clean by comparison to petrol, so restrictions in cities for those are probably thirty years or more away, but who knows?  Once they start with these taxes and charges, and they get accepted by the electorate against one group, then the barrier is broken and it's much easier for them to extend the charges to others, diesel just being the thin end of the wedge.

LPG isn't available at every petrol station in the UK, but a quick glance at the map showed five stations on the 25 mile commute I used to do, with at least one station in or by every significant town, so it isn't that bad.  It'd still be prudent to have a petrol tank too, though.

Diesel can't be phased out - all commercial and emergency services vehicles run on it.  But it can continue to be made financially non-viable by increasing taxes and bans from more towns and cities.  Authorities can get away with anything when they raise the environment as a justification.

I think a Tdi or similar is still worth fixing if it only needs some minor work like a head, hone or injectors.  I'm just wondering if it's worth getting the whole engine rebuilt by the top engineers, along with new or properly reconditioned fuel systems, for a total of about 4000 Sterling when for similar money the tuned and gassed petrol engines are an option, or a gassed V8 if you don't mind a bit more effort in installation and finding the mating kits.

[=jon=]

I've been running LPG on my (previously HoSS's) v8 110 for the last few years. Other than a few little niggles, it's no different to running petrol really. Occasionally it'll backfire through the gas carb and pop a hose off when starting/cold, but it's a very simple kit and probably shouldn't be started on gas all the time, rather started on petrol and allowed to warm up before switching over. I've got a multi-point kit waiting to go on when the 4.6 goes in it though which should sort all of that out

In terms of sourcing gas - on my 50 each way mile commute there's 3 places I could get gas (2 of which are expensive as they are mway services) on the route, and a fair few off route. You can get phone apps that will take you to the nearest place if you are unfamiiar with the area and do price comparisons etc. It's not quite as convenient as petrol, but with a bit of planning it's not too much of a hardship, and I can always switch back to petrol if I run out (which isn't that often).

Unfortunately the number of LPG stations seems to be on the decrease - BP dropped it from their forecourts last year, and Countrywide stores who had a lot of LPG stations in the SW have recently gone bust - they've sold the LPG side of the business off, but as a high proportion of their stations were at their store locations who knows what their future is...

When I took the 110 down through France there's a LOT more stations there, I really don't understand why it's not caught on here - I guess we were all victims of the diesel hard sell and ignored it

[monkie]

I wish that they would scrap vehicle tax completely and just tax the fuel. That way the more you use the more you pay or vice versa, also you wouldn't have to remember to do it. It would also mean that if you drive a plug-in hybrid but don't plug it in as often as you should; then you would be paying a fairer share of tax.

I think more and more company car drivers like me are going to get a plug-in hybrid as they can attract significantly less benefit in kind tax. Trouble is from an environmental point of view, they are unlikely to be plugged in and charged anywhere near as often as they should be.

 

[Gazzar]

For my lightweight built the current plan is a 2.5 petrol with acr tweaks. I'm not going near clockwork, so it will be on mega squirt, though I am considering an EFI alternative that's made locally. My debate is local support versus internet support.

As I don't do serious miles, I'll stick with petrol, dual tanks should give me decent range.

The TDI will stay that way, that's a load hauler, though I will be trying to tune it to be cleaner.

[FridgeFreezer]

If it's a petrol engine you just need to mount an injector or 4 somewhere and you can run megasquirt for fuel + ignition, nice switchable tables for proper running on LPG...

A lot of smaller petrol motors have a nice little TBI unit which could surely be bolted in place of a carb with minimal faff.

[mickeyw]

No experience of ACR's work, but I've been running LPG in V8s for 20 odd years now.

Supply isn't always straight forward, and if travelling out of your familiar areas routes need pre-planning around refuelling points. The LPG locator websites aren't always 100% up to date either.

 For some reason our government hasn't ever backed or encouraged LPG as a road fuel. The biggest problem for me, and this is a v8 thing really, is carrying enough fuel for a decent range between fill ups. An my RRC I managed to carry 100 litres among 4 underslung tanks, but my 110 goes off road, so no underslung tanks in that.

Reliability of LPG systems has never been an issue. In more recent years I've used MegaJolt to provide dual ignition maps to optimise for both fuels. It's been handy for water proofing reasons too.

[elbekko]

LPG isn't too hard to find, I use the FillLPG Android app when I'm in the UK, works pretty well. I get about 300-330km between fill-ups, never really been an issue.

[Gazzar]

4 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

If it's a petrol engine you just need to mount an injector or 4 somewhere and you can run megasquirt for fuel + ignition, nice switchable tables for proper running on LPG...

A lot of smaller petrol motors have a nice little TBI unit which could surely be bolted in place of a carb with minimal faff.

Multi point, would be my preference, it makes logical sense to me.

It's a fuel rail and injectors through the manifold, isn't it?

Sorry off topic.

LPG makes most sense for higher miles, but the lightweight is a toy, so non issue.

[Tanuki]

LPG etc is fine in theory - but remember that unless you go through a recertification program your LPG-ized vehicle will still be classed for emissions-purposes (London LEZ, driving-into-Paris etc) as having the same emissions as when it was originally made.

This was a big thing a while back with London Taxis [many of which had Land-Rover engines] - there was an expensive retro-fit kit and subsequent emissions-conformance test to make them compliant with the then London emissions regs [STT Emtec Clean Cab or Van Aaken EGR system] : but it wasn't enough long-term and these taxis then generally got refitted with a Nissan 2.7 engine - which in time aldo became unacceptable emissions-wise!

Amateur retro-fitting of emissions stuff is all very well, but you'll still need to submit the modified vehicle to an approved testing-centre [not just a MoT place] to get the thing certified as conforming to the current particulates/CO2/NOx standards - and that ain't gonna be cheap.

[=jon=]

For LPG, it used to just be a case of notifying the DVLA and possibly sending the installation certificate and they'd update the paperwork and give you a whopping £10 off your road tax...

edit - that's assuming the conversion of a petrol to LPG. If you are converting a diesel engined vehicle to petrol+LPG that's going to be more complex...

I don't think LPG vehicles are LEZ exempt any more either, you still have to pay

Edited May 22, 2018 by =jon=

[Snagger]

I was thinking of avoiding diesel more to avoid tax and duty increases that seem likely, rather than looking to reduce present duty.  The LPG thoughts were to try to make the cost per mile comparable to diesel, rather than the dual fuel discount.  I may have it wrong, Jon, but I think diesels will be more heavily charged in the new versions of EZs, and I suspect that they may eventually face much higher annual road fund charges than now while petrol engines see comparatively little increase.  But it's the proposed outright bans to certain areas for diesels but not petrol, even old petrol engines, that is the biggest concern.

It's disappointing to hear that it never really gained traction, but I suspect the contravention of EU rules by charging fuel duty on it after it initially started looking popular, driving up the retail cost, was part of that.  I'm surprised to read that BP have removed many of the points, as one of them on a map I looked at yesterday was the bog BP station on the A6/A421 junction on the south edge of Bedford that i went past every day.  That may be saved by the fact that it's a more expensive station, being essentially like a motorway services type.

John, the sequential injection - would that be into the head, or the branches of the inlet manifold?  The special throttle body inlet would seem easier to fit, but I presume with less performance and more difficult starting.

[zardos]

How about LPG your diesel. More power, cleaner burn (note lpg on diesel is not a fuel replacement, but as an additive)

[Snagger]

2 minutes ago, zardos said:

How about LPG your diesel. More power, cleaner burn (note lpg on diesel is not a fuel replacement, but as an additive)

That doesn't get around the main problem of anti-diesel sentiment in European authorities.

[Gazzar]

Give it five years and a new fad will be along, ban batteries, or some such nonsense. 

These things always change.

[Bowie69]

Yep, it will be ban LION, the nickel mining is pretty filthy stuff.

I think aluminium -water (or similar gelled water) are in development, they would be pretty amazing, much more like supercapacitors to charge, and good life cycle and energy density.

So... should be cheap as well(!)

[=jon=]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

I'm surprised to read that BP have removed many of the points, as one of them on a map I looked at yesterday was the bog BP station on the A6/A421 junction on the south edge of Bedford that i went past every day.  That may be saved by the fact that it's a more expensive station, being essentially like a motorway services type.

I think BP removed their LPG outlets in their BP owned garages, but franchises can still carry LPG if they want to - the BP station in Newbury removed it's gas pump a while back, but the Newbury Services (which is BP) still has one.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

I think aluminium -water (or similar gelled water) are in development, they would be pretty amazing, much more like supercapacitors to charge, and good life cycle and energy density.

So... should be cheap as well(!)

Much like nuclear fusion, plenty of miracle batteries are in development and "just a few years away"... certainly all current battery technologies suck for practical electric vehicles and are only improving by small increments.

I daily-drive a diesel and just avoid London 'cos it's a sh**hole, seems to work OK