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disconc

MS1 Padawan looking for MS1 Jedi Master's knowledgeable help

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Hi gents,

ok, I will try a quick summary first...

target : 1998 discovery 1, 3.9, autobox, low comp engine, no cat from factory (Rest of the World market spec :P )
and tubular headers (Rimmerbros complete Sport Stainless Steel Exhaust System).

Been running on lucas 14cux + MS1'n'EDIS spark only for about 6 years.
It already has an LC1 wideband fitted and connected to the ECU.

Finally decided to take the full MS free fall :D.

Wiring finished late this last weekend.
Checked every thing was consistent on the DB37 (GND/Live/sensor signal/etc)
Plugged in the ECU
Power ON : checked all gauges were reading ok and calibrated TPS

As a separate note, before first full MS start and before unplugging the lucas, while it was still running, I have done a base idle speed setting with the screw on plenum near the throttle plate to 800 rpm (stock IAV valve hose plugged), and left the idle air valve hose plugged, so there is no other air coming into the plenum except throttle and throttle bypass screw.

Then, even if I had no time for it at this moment, could not resist the temptation to start the engine...

By the way, MS1 extra 'n' EDIS 029y4 ECU loaded with latest msq from Nigel (thank you so much Maaaster)

First start : crank, immediately fire (YEAH !!), but stalls within the first few seconds

Second start : the same... surely ASE/WUE needs tweaking... and from cold might need a little extra air maybe...

Third crank : prevent it from stalling with the throttle during a few minutes until it reach a better temperature, lots of pops and bangs, nearly stall, rev to 2000 with wideband reading lean, nearly stall, etc... till temperature climb and then reach a better idle.
              adjusted/increased the reqfuel value to 20 to have a good 800 rpm warm idle at about 13.5 AFR, as I did not want to modify the VE map yet
              
Don't kick me, I have not had the good reflex to log all this, should try next weekend to log everything...
              
So here are my questions now : What is the best "procedure" to go on from there and tune properly without screwing everything up ?

1°) what is considered to be a good idle ?
    I  have not much engine mechanics background... so I can read sensors, but difficult for me to estimate by "ear and nose" if the idle is set as best as possible.
    I understand I must have a good enough idle before trying to drive the car for tuning.
    
    Tried to lower a little the reqfuel when hot, but rpm climbed a little and afr climbed a little, but engine seemed less happy, MAP not moving that much
    Tried to up a little the reqfuel when hot, but rpm down a little and afr down also, engine note still about ok, MAP not moving that much
    I read that best idle was achieved with lowest MAP... but find it difficult to find this compromise.
    
    I believe it is a matter, when engine warm, to tweak : base idle screw, req fuel, advance... to achieve the least MAP at the target rpm...
    
    But what is the good "procedure" to fiddle with these 3 variables to achieve the best, at least real good idle tune and at which target rpm ??
    
2°) I understand I should first get the VE table right before messing with ASE and WUE, but at now it is a real PITA to start...
    ... and there are so much settings in ASE/WUE, and everything happens so fast after cranking (within a few seconds), that I do not know what to tweak, in which order, which "direction" (up/down) and which "quantity"...
    Later on, I will install and plumb in a PWM idle valve, but as I understand I need to have the VE table, ASE and WUE set up first, so it is not fitted at all at the moment.
    So to start the engine, seems like it is missing the extra air to be provided by the idle valve.
    
    Do you think I should install the PWM IDLE VALVE anyway but as "warm up" only maybe for a start ??? if so, any suggested settings  ???
    
3°) Bowie, if you are around reading, I have read several times that you have backed off from using the PWM valve as closed loop, as with a good tune, you could do without it.
Are you still running a 3.9 with autobox ?
Is it modified from a stock one ?
Could you please share with me your latest MSQ, so I could get some "inspiration" from your settings ?

I believe this is a starter and you should see me coming back here often to ask for some wise advices on how to tune my MS now :blink:

Thank you for your support guys

Cheers from South Pacific

Erik.   

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Sounds like you're close! 

First things first, though: if it's popping and banging it's running lean, the timing is way out or both. Any kind of idle valve isn't going to help with that, so forget that for the moment. There's no shame in dialing up a bit of extra throttle stop or bypass to get it idling - even if a little fast - to give you time to verify timing, play with the map and get comfortable. 

There's a "fixed timing" setting you can use to ignore the timing map which is dead handy for this. Set it to maybe five degree before tdc, start up, get it warm, play with the fuel until it's ticking over nicely. Double check the timing and adjust if necessary. Once you've done that, you can think about going back to dynamic timing and tuning on some no load areas. 

Let us know how you get on :)

Could you post screen shots of your maps? There are some truly clueless maps about - particularly timing - so would be good to cast an eye over and see that you're running something sensible. 

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I will dig my warm up only idle map out at some point, nudge me if you don't hear from me n a couple of days, though the laptop it is on is not with me at the moment.

My 4.0 map should be good for you, the engine is breathed on a little, but not so much that you can't use it as a starting point.

Adjusting the required fuel is bit of a sledgehammer, suggest once you have it even remotely close, start tinkering with the 4 cells in the VE table that are around idle to get it right.

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If you were running it in spark-only before then you should have a good set of spark settings available - start by making sure you have transferred those across correctly / not wiped them. The popping & banging sounds ignition-related but I'd hope your ignition setup/config/table should not have changed?

After that, as others say, do NOT fiddle with WUE,ASE,REQ_FUEL,etc.etc. and disable PWM / block the idle air pipe, disable EGO correction (0% authority)  - if it starts at all you JUST need to get the bottom 4 or 9 cells around idle to be about right so it will idle happily.

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12 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Adjusting the required fuel is bit of a sledgehammer, suggest once you have it even remotely close, start tinkering with the 4 cells in the VE table that are around idle to get it right.

^^This - set the req_fuel using the calculator in Tunerstudio and then leave it alone, get the car started and then when its warmed up adjust the VE values in the fuel table for the idle cell and the cells immediately around it, set them to all the same value at something that makes the engine happy. 

To get a good idle i'd go for something between 13.5 and 14.0:1 AFR wise, see how lean you can get it before losing idle quality then add a bit of fuel back in. 

*edit:

I have no idle valve on my MS1 install and that starts and runs just fine, and on my MS2 I use a stepper idle valve in warm up only. They won't compensate for an idle that fluctuates due to the tune, but will help with things introducing load and dropping the rpm, like winches, cooling fans etc.

 

Edited by Quagmire
Add stuff about idle valves

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Thank you all experienced squirters for your feedbacks !!!

I will double check if my spark settings have not moved, but as I was running the ms spark only before, the spark map was hopefully not that bad, and just before unplugging the lucas, I had double checked with a timing light that the timing was the same as indicated by TS. dead on !

Before uploading Nige's msq to my ecu, I had checked that the spark settings in this msq were similar to my previous spark only settings... but before next start, I will re-double-check ignition settings and spark table are the same as I had before (and post a screen shot this time).

From my memory, in Nige's MSQ, the req_fuel was about 17 or so (will recheck again this weekend, as I have not access to the car and the computer till then), and when I battled to keep it alive, I saw the afr reading lean, so I upped the req_fuel to 20 (as this is a value I have seen elsewhere), and it seemed happier.

I did this because in the fuel table, with the rough running going on (near stall to 2000 rpm), it was difficult to choose the correct cell and type in :blink: and also because I have read in the megamanual that they recommend to do it this way rather than modify the cells in the table, as this could cause these idle cells to be way off compared to the rest of the table, while moding the req_fuel kind of shifts all the map and keep it consistent cell to cell.

Since the above, I have not tried to restart it from cold... so I will know this weekend if it starts better after the req_fuel mod I had done ...

I also confirm at now and before getting a correct ve table, etc... my idle air pipe is blocked and pwm valve is not fitted yet.
From memory, I also had switched the EGO correction as Mr Fridge suggest (0% authority)

Now, when it was warm, it was quite okayish, so I believe I can keep the req_fuel which I have typed in, and from now, when warm tweak the cells around the idle point to smooth it as you all suggest.
Again, when it was warm, from mem, advance showed 7/8 degrees, so I believe it is not that off.

So for this weekend :
 => recheck the settings
 => try cold starting with the last richer settings, and try loging this time to have a better knowledge of what is going on (replay :))
 => when warm, adjust the VE values for the idle cell and those just around, to have a good idle
     ==> what idle speed should I "target" : 800 rpm ? (considering it is only "base idle" without idle valve)
     ==> should I try to lower the idle ve cell values... as it leans, maybe up a little the advance... which might up the speed, so close the idle bypass screw on plenum... is this the way to achieve the lowest idle MAP (seems to be the target) ??
         or should I just leave it as it is now, say warm idling at about 800 rpm with AFR showing about 13.5  and MAP 40/45 kpa !?!     
     
 => then, what is next : go for a first gentle drive while loging to tune the VE table ???
      
Crossing fingers it will be an easier starter now and looking forward to do a few tuning runs, so my VE table looks good and I can then tweak in the rest to have a good cold start and the PWM idle valve fitted (to account for the winch, lights and the A/C loads when they kick in ... I managed to make a mod to the lucas loom so the A/C is still working with the MS, as the 14cux was "driving" the A/C compressor clutch)

Side not : Quagmire, good to now that with a good tune, it should be able to start, run and warm up without an idle valve fitted... I believe your idle speed is then set only by the idle air by-pass screw / throttle plate... what is you target idle speed then ?

Thank you all for your valuable help.

Will come back with further questions, and details, screen shots, logs, etc...

Cheers

Erik.

 

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Hi Erik,

The theory is to set your target idle with the bypass screw to something slightly below your final desired rpm, when the idle valve is reintroduced it will let some air by even when fully closed.

I run the ms1 vehicle (no valve) at about 800rpm when warm, without the valve to pickup the idle I need to give it a tiny bit of throttle for the first 30 seconds on a cold day.

On my ms2 vehicle it starts, and on a cold day will idle at 1200rpm before quickly ramping down to a warm rpm of 750.

 

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40 minutes ago, Quagmire said:

Hi Erik,

The theory is to set your target idle with the bypass screw to something slightly below your final desired rpm, when the idle valve is reintroduced it will let some air by even when fully closed.

I run the ms1 vehicle (no valve) at about 800rpm when warm, without the valve to pickup the idle I need to give it a tiny bit of throttle for the first 30 seconds on a cold day.

On my ms2 vehicle it starts, and on a cold day will idle at 1200rpm before quickly ramping down to a warm rpm of 750.

 

Hi and thank you sir for this feedback.

So I think I will target 800 rpm still for the moment... hopefully, even without an idle valve, temperature around here NEVER go under 10°C (even under 15°C is really an exception)... so it should be able to start cold not that bad if I manage a good tune...

Thanks again

Erik

 

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This may be obvious but until the lambda sensor has warmed up the readings are meaningless, so for cold starts / the first 30sec after starting don't believe anything it tells you! Go by what the engine is doing.

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22 hours ago, disconc said:

... I managed to make a mod to the lucas loom so the A/C is still working with the MS, as the 14cux was "driving" the A/C compressor clutch)...

Cheers

Erik.

Hi Erik,

I have yet to squirt my 3.9 but I was wondering if you could tell me how you did the modification for the aircon?

I will have the same problem one day,

Cheers Charlie

 

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23 hours ago, Chazza said:

Hi Erik,

I have yet to squirt my 3.9 but I was wondering if you could tell me how you did the modification for the aircon?

I will have the same problem one day,

Cheers Charlie

G'day Charlie,

we are nearly neighbors ;o)

Ok, concerning the A/C, this is applicable to the loom of my 1998 discovery 1 with LUCAS 14CUX, so you will have to double check that the wire colours and LUCAS plug pinout match yours also.

On Lucas plug pin N°21 there should be a GY (green with yellow strip wire) coming from the AC logic relay, providing a live voltage to the ecu, telling that AC function has been requested.

From that, the LUCAS ECU, if it feels everything is good to go, will activate the AC compressor clutch relay.

To do so, it will ground a thin BS (Black with grey strip wire !! carefull, there is another fatter BS wire which is a constant GND) on its PIN N°33.

Once you have identified these wires, (unplug LUCAS ecu plug, find the wires, do a continuity test between the pin in plug and the wire itself... little cut in the insulation at the place you intend to cut if it is the good wire), you can cut them and test to be sure.

For peace of mind, isolate the free wires cut LUCAS side.

On loom side, with IGN on, check that you indeed get a live voltage on the GY wire when you activate the AC button + fan speed.

Also with IGN on, but without engine running, send a ground to the thin BS wire and check that you can hear the AC compressor clutch relay and compressor clutch itself trigger.

If so, that is good as gold.

Then you can add a relay that would have :

=> for his coil, on one side, the GND sent by MS ECU (pin 37) to trigger the fuel pump relay, and on the other side the live provided by the GY wire from the AC CONTROLS

=> for his NO contact, on one a side a chassis GROUND and on the other side the thin BS wire that activate compressor clutch.

In this way, if engine is running (fuel pump relay activated) and AC asked, then the contact will close and send a GND to the AC compressor clutch relay... and here is your cold air :D

There is just one weakness in this, be careful... do not crank the engine with AC ON... else all the conditions will be met to have the AC compressor activated, so your starter will have to crank the engine with the AC compressor as an additional load !!!

I was thinking about replacing my relay above by a relay with a time delay activation, so if AC controls are on and you start the engine, the relay receives the operating voltages, but will only trigger say 30 secs later on... so hopefully after the engine has already started.

Hope that can be of any help

Cheers

Erik.

 

 

 

 

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Ok chaps, a bit of the weekend update...

I have rechecked all the spark settings in my project were fine : no prob to my eyes.

Then I started from cold while logging.
Of course, during start, there is no usable AFR, as at power on, it warms up and does not send any output while heating.

Yet, hopefully, a grown up could please have a look at the starting log attached and maybe give me some advice on which way I can improve the cold start.

Anyway, starting was way better than first time !!!
First crank = fire... then stall
Second crank = nope
Third crank with a bit of throttle = start... and kept it running with throttle a few seconds before being able to release the throttle on a very slow idle... until it warmed up and came back to something around 800/850 rpm.

Then I waited till really warm, say about 80°C, and adjusted the cells around idle and smoothed them all to the same value (47) on cells 600+1000 rpm @ 30/40/50 kpa.
I have then a nice idle at around 850 rpm, AFR 13.5/13.7, 38/40 kpa, 10 deg of advance.

I do not know if I can tweak the idle better ??? until I have the PWM valve fitted as I believe I will have to lower the "base idle" with screw on plenum.

From then guess what, I decided to go for the first FULL MS drive/log/tune ... YEAH !!! :D:D:D and it drives pretty well in fact.

First run on original one size fits all map was okayish, yet definitely rich, as I saw several time the AFR showing in the 11s.

Ended doing three runs, the first two logging, then MLV => VE ANALYSE, re-smooth my idle cells at 47.
The last run, I did with TS autotune turned on, but not automatically applying to the ECU, so at the end of the run, I could see the changes and decide to apply then.
Once again, accepted and re-smoothed my idle cells.

All "autotunes" above being done with a wideband innovate LC1 default settings and cell change to EASY (AE disabled, EGO correction diabled, fuel cut off on over-run disabled).

Faithfully, I did not have free time enough to make a new drive with this last map.

So for our kind MS grown ups around here :rolleyes:;), can you please give me your feedback and advices, on the attached files :

- a pdf file showing with the progress from the first VE table to the last one.

- my last msp

- the last TS autotune screenshot showing the map coverage

From the first tune already, the modified cells would not let the AFR go in the 11s, but rather in the 13s, which is quite satisfying :D

From now on, what would you recommend doing ?

=> I believe a bit more driving to try to cover more of the VE table.
   As with an autobox, there are some areas not easy to go into.
   On last run, going down hill, I locked the box in lower gears, no throttle, to go into engine braking, and it poped poped poped a lot in the exhaust...

=> Also, I found out that after a run, when I stop the car and let it idle, the time to make the ve analyze, etc... the idle on the hot engine is higher, say to around 925/950 rpm, AFR and MAP ok, but faster... and If I wait long enough, it will slow down as the engine cools a little maybe...
   Should I re-adjust the plenum idle bypass screw to have this HOT idle to 800/850 ??? (surely yes when the PWM IDLE valve will be fitted I guess)
   
=> Other thing bothering me is a dead spot with a quick change of throttle, mainly when starting from a stop for example.
   For the first tuning runs, AE is turned off with a big value in TPS threshold, so I am sure it has to do with this... but how do you tune the Accel Enrichment ???
   
=> Then : the cold start and warm up... will need to be tweaked, but I believe I should wait to have the VE table tuned more maybe ??? although I know now my "nice" idle cells are in the 47... so tuning the rest of the table might not change this anymore (as I manually retype them each time) as far as starting is concerned ???

=> Last thing : the PWM IDLE VALVE ... I know with a good tune (but am not sure to know enough to manage such a good tune) it should be possible to do without the IDLE VALVE... but the autobox + AC + possibly winch loads would surely be more easily dealt with... with the PWM idle valve... and also the cold start, as I believe at now, it is missing air (as I could see from last start).

Ok then, a few files attached, so if you could please comment on these and tell me what I should do next, it would be so great.

Thank you so much for your support

Cheers

Erik.

 

 

2018-06-10_14.39.04 cold start and idle.zip

Erik 3-9 auto 20180610 tune.msq

20180610 first real tuning session.pdf

3rd run - FIRST TS AUTOTUNE.jpg

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Hello everyone,

while I do not have access to the car this week and for a week more, I am still thinking about what I should do next.

If you could please share your thoughts on the above post it would be great, mainly :

-> the beginning of the cold starting log to give me ideas in which direction I should move things

-> the end of the cold starting log, to tell me if the readings at idle seem good enough to leave it as is

Also, before messing with AE, etc... what would you manually tweak/smooth on the VE map below before the next tuning run, considering I have a flat spot/hesitation when applying throttle to drive from a stop for example :

5b21b49daa36c_erik20180610vetable.jpg.889271bfc4e368116ed0832a69a8014b.jpg

Or maybe, it is my spark map below which would need tweaking to help solve the hesitation on "quick" throttle  movement ?

5b21b4e4b5a36_erik20180610sparktable.jpg.89ed35348760bb702248a38ec5ebd977.jpg

Also, to finish with, before I can do further tuning sessions, please find below the AFR TARGET TABLE used up to now for my previous runs. Do you think it is good, or would it need tweaking to provide a better tune ?

5b21b52a8e194_erik20180610afrtable.jpg.aa86884b16663c54bed3d70806e6988b.jpg

Thank you very much in advance for your valuable help

Best regards

Erik.

 

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Hi Erik, I would suggest that you change the scaling on the afr target table to give you more resolution down at the idle end, with more columns and rows around the low rpm, low map areas. That way you can specify the targets a bit better in the parts of the map that you feel the car the most... I'd go for something like 800, 1000, 1200, 1600, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000.

Likewise with the map columns, so if you car idles at 30kPa, I'd have a row for that and a few closely grouped around that with larger gaps as you move to WOT.

Hope that makes sense!

 

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As said, I'd rescale the AFR target table to match your ignition / VE tables, so you have some cells down below where your desired idle speed is, if you pick an idle speed (eg. 850) have a column specifically for that, as then you have a VE/AFR/Ignition figure just for that speed, and the MS isn't trying to interpolate between two columns for the idle values, and when you want to make minor changes you can adjust one cell value not a cluster of cells.

I'm not sure if the option is there on MS1, but in later versions there's a settings in General Settings in Tunerstudio called 'incorporate AFR Target' - if you enable this at the start then decide you want to change the AFR target table, it will automatically adjust the VE table without having to do a full retune.

The hesitation on pulling away is probably your acceleration enrichment needing tuning - if the AFR guage spikes lean when you pull away it's probably this. I think the recommendation is that you get the VE table reasonably close before you start playing though. Tuning this is a bit trial and error, there's a guide on the msextra site somewhere...

The popping on overrun is because it's going lean in very low load/overrun areas - because you don't have fuel cut on overrun set yet. TS apparently likes to mess up the map on overrun/idle so make sure you have a minimum MAP setting of somewhere round your idle and a min RPM threshold of 1500RPM or so as well to stop this. You can enable EGO / fuel cut / AE etc in tunerstudio when letting it VEAL tune as it takes this into account anyway. 

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Congrats on getting it running, but that's a dreadful spark table. Before you go tuning, get that sorted. 

First place to start is the max load line. Think of this as mechanical advance on a dizzy: You'd set timing with a dizzy with vac advance disconnected at maybe five degrees BTDC, right? So that's what goes on the low RPM area. Beyond that, the weights in the distributor would be advancing timing up to just before peak torque, probably up to high 20's in this case. Ideally, you want to keep timing fixed as you pass through peak torque, then advance slowly a couple more degrees as RPM continues to climb to redline. 

Then we need to look at the vac advance, which is what fills the rest of the table. The vac advance advances the timing with increasing vacuum (throttle closing). Ignore the stupid ported vacuum connections upstream of the throttle plate on later carb models, the proper way is to consider manifold vacuum. So, you've got your baseline "mechanical advance" in the 100kpa line, and we know that "vacuum advance" adds to that as manifold vacuum builds. Typical vac advance could be ten or fifteen degrees, so take your 100kpa values, add ten to them, paste into the 20kpa bins. Interpolate between the two lines through the rest of the map. EFI allows you to be much more creative, so you can build advance (which is the key to power on these old 2 valve engines) in places on the map you'd be struggling to hit with a dizzy. The ~60kpa/~2200rpm area is one place you might like to experiment adding a bit more advance in beyond the linear "flat" map. The golden rule is no sudden changes, keep it smooth between the bins. 

You'll want to get this right before tuning fuel as the timing will affect AFR. The timing map you've got there will give poor efficiency, power and throttle response. 

A useful calculator can be found here:

http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/spktable.htm

Output looks like this:

Probably a bit much for your engine at the top end, and peak torque in the wrong place so not ideal values for you, but you get the idea. 

IMG-20180613-WA0008.jpg.5c5d307913fcd5e77ed9a860af6d6466.jpg

HTH :)

Ian 

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Hi gents,

thank your for your feedback... yet, designing new afr maps and spark maps is way beyond my engine mechanics knowledge :P

Yet, I tried to understand what you mean, and tried to dial in a new AFR TARGET table from your suggestion and from all the rover V8 AFR target tables I have gathered here and there (mine original above was from one of Bowie's post :D).

Anyhow, what do you think about this one then ? Does it seem worth a try ??

5b233d858a16c_mynewmanualafrtarget20180615.jpg.8a485454e66ac17b33097dd5bc3f2861.jpg

I tried to leave it a bit richer on the low rpm and near my idle point... might need a little leaning maybe around cruise area when I will know where it is :lol: !!!!!

Ian, as to the spark map... a bit of the same story, I kind of understand what you mean, but I have not enough engine mechanics background to be able to draw a table by myself... and I am afraid to play with timing as I have read too much warning about too much advance being harmful... so a bit nervous on which values to input.

So tried to do as you suggest, generated a map from your link, and compared it with various spark maps gathered for rover V8 on LR4x4, and mainly softening this a little because of the above :unsure:.

Keep in mind my engine is a 3.9 serpentine LOW COMP 8.13:1 or 8.31:1 (I do not remember the exact number, but under 9), no cats.

Therefore, what would you think about this one spark map for a try (based on one from Nigel from a post somewhere...) ???

5b233fa35666c_newsparktablesaisiemanuelle.jpg.a6831e0fe3cfa72fd3a691688177be4f.jpg

Please tell me if ok or where to modify...

Thank you all very much for your support, every input is highly appreciated

Cheers

Erik.

 

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That looks like it ought to be pretty safe and much better overall. The critical parts are low RPM, high load, and the high load line in general as far as risk of serious detonation and engine damage go. Your AFR targets are pretty sensible, so just take it easy and keep an ear out for "tinkling" sounds a little like gravel being thrown up off the tyres and hitting the footwells. Don't panic if you do get a little pinging, it's not going to nuke itself unless you keep hammering it. Just back off, retard the timing a bit in that area, check it wasn't going crazy lean and try again. Keep us posted :)

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I'll have to counter something here, you don't use autotune/tune by AFR target tables for idle, that is next to useless - so I wouldn't go messing with it to include 6-1200 in steps at all. Coupled to this, it is an auto, yes? When would you be driving around at 1000, or 1200, or even anything less than 1500 with a torque converter with a stall speed of ~1800rpm?

Increasing the resolution down near idle would be wasting resolution for the higher rev ranges, leading to non-optimal tuning.

Idle is easy to tune manually, look at AFR, tweak VE table re-check, DONE. You will need to do this every tune as it will always get tweaked by auto tune.

For spark, while factory says 6 degrees at idle, I found a little more often helped, especially with LPG, but in time, when I dig my laptop out from where it is hiding, I will get you my load compensation strategy.
 

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I'd agree with you there Bowie, I like to have more control over the transition from the idle portion of the map and into low rpms which is why I was suggesting the rescaling.

I never use autotune on idle, and lock those cells off.

 

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I never used auto tune at all, just got a mate to drive sensibly, watched the wideband and played with the map as we went. Gives you a good feel for what the engine is doing and how its reacting and gives a chance to change timing on the fly. Saves the temptation to "play" or peek at it while driving too :rolleyes: Even better is time on a steady state dyno, but a bit beyond most DIYers unless you've got a local shop happy to let you play for an hour or two for beer money. Some long, steep hills can be a good substitute. 

 

 

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Hi MS grown ups ;)

thank you all for your feedback.

Honestly, I really do not have near enough knowhow / knowledge to tune without autotune... for now.

On next available run, I will try this latest spark map, thanks Ian.

As to AFR targets, I quite understand what you mean Bowie, and might then reconsider my AFR target table by merging the 800/1200 into a 1000 rpm column, and add another column at 3500 rpm, as I reckon I rarely go beyond 4000 rpm... so my most used range is 1000-4000 and this way, I would have 7 col out of 8 in the my common running range...

As to the idle itself, for the moment, I have found a VE value for my idle cells, so indeed won't let autotune change my idle point cells... and also found out that in autotune, you could select these cells, and select a lock function, so autotune will not modify them. That's neat !!

Bowie, indeed, if you could dig out your buried treasure laptop, I am still please definitely interested by your latest happy running msq and load compensation strategy ... so I would definitely cheat on it :rolleyes:. Thank you so much in advance.

This Sunday is father's day here (and I believe in UK too), so no tuning this weekend... rather next one, so in the meantime, I am still very happy to receive every valuable feedback and ideas from my master MSer around here :D

Thank you again, have a nice weekend, and happy father's day to who is concerned.

Cheers

Erik.

 

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It's me again :)

About the AFR Target table, take into consideration Bowie's comments, and the fact that I use more the low revs than the 4k+, I still wanted to have a smooth transition from idle to low/mid rpm as Quagmire says, so I tried to make an average of all this below.

What do you think about this one then for my next runs ?

5b243d85ae398_2ndtrymanualafrtarget20180616.jpg.547c95eaa0f4ec7f804facedbf241d5e.jpg

Thank you all !

Cheers

Erik.

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I've only skimmed this as my brain hurts but you don't need MAP & RPM values on your table which are wildly outside the limits of normal operation. if your engine makes 30kPa at idle you might want the lowest row of the table to be 20kPa but the 10kPa row is likely doing very little of any use as, on overrun (<10kPa) you'd likely be injecting zero fuel anyway so you don't really need to tune that, it can just fall off the bottom of the map and MS will interpolate what (normally) would be a downward slope in fuelling.

As per previous suggestions - 1st things to get right are the ignition map, then the fuel map, and ONLY THEN the enrichments like acceleration, cold-start / warmup etc. and ONLY CHANGE ONE THING AT  TIME!

Also, try to save settings regularly with some note of what you changed / if it was running well so you know yo can go back to a good point if you mess it up.

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