New product from xcess4x4

[SPendrey]

Why would you need to use these?  I get what they're for, but what scenario would require this amount of stiffening?  Challenge truck maybe, but surely nothing else?

[Gazzar]

Heavily loaded vehicles?

Bling?

But, yes, you are right, I think, the main use would be competition.

G.

[Cynic-al]

If he wants to sell them he needs to paint them orange and write xtreme on it.

[FridgeFreezer]

On 7/21/2018 at 6:23 AM, Bowie69 said:

Any reason to do this rather than the Tomcat style inner tubes? (not with epoxy..... no idea why KAM ever thought of that).

I'd expect it's stronger for much less material, sleeving the inside with a smaller tube you're fighting physics - adding a brace to the outside you're benefiting from it.

[Snagger]

5 hours ago, Cynic-al said:

If he wants to sell them he needs to paint them orange and write xtreme on it.

That's Extreme 4x4, not Xcess 4x4, born phoenix-like out of Scrapiron Racing's ashes if I'm not mistaken.  I kept getting the names mixed up for a while, unfortunately.

I can see the concern over warping the axle, though have no idea how valid that concern is.  I thought the kit had top and bottom braces, not just top - wouldn't heavy tacking both top and bottom braces before fully welding prevent any warping, if they do have two braces?

[Daan]

Anyone on here actually bend an axle?

Daan

[oneandtwo]

I have been plagued by bent axles over the years.

1950 80” had a bent front axle casing, due to collision in 50’s I believe and was never spotted until I bought it.

1966 ex army 2a bent front axle presumably during military service

1968 lightweight bent front axle, this was a trialer so could’ve happened trialling or military.

300tdi 90 bent rear stub axle, rear wheel didn’t look quite right and half shaft hard to remove as binding on stub axle.

Finally I bent a 300tdi front axle clipping a wall at 15- 20mph. No bodywork damage, popped the tyre and bent the axle!

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Daan said:

Anyone on here actually bend an axle?

Seen it done, never done it myself.

[RedLineMike]

11 hours ago, Daan said:

Anyone on here actually bend an axle?

Daan

yep,
 

landrover axles are surprisingly easy to bend

[rick]

13 hours ago, Daan said:

Anyone on here actually bend an axle?

Daan

Australian built Isuzu powered 110's in Australia bend the front housing just from the cast iron 4cyl lump sitting above.

My old Tdi 130 sported more than 1/2* of negative camber on the front end. At least it was even both sides !

The 130 Sals rear end use 8mm tube instead of 6mm tube for the same reason, and they still pull axle tubes out of the centre when heavily loaded and punished on Australian and African 'roads'

Edited July 24, 2018 by rick

[FridgeFreezer]

6 minutes ago, rick said:

The 130 Sals rear end use 8mm tube instead of 6mm tube

Never heard of that one, thought all Sals were the same?

[daveturnbull]

13 hours ago, Daan said:

Anyone on here actually bend an axle?

Daan

Yep, Tidworth CCDA cross ruts, easily done.

[Cynic-al]

I bent a samurai rear axle on my SJ410. On the replacement I welded a lump of angle on the front so the vee was sticking out the back. Figured it might help it slide over stuff as well as improve stiffness. Welding it on didn't seem to cause problems with the axle bending. It was also coil spring converted so I had all that to replicate on the new axle so it had a fair bit of weld on it.

[elbekko]

Plenty of bytes have been spilled on Pirate (before it went to carp) about axles warping when welding on trusses. So it's not that far fetched.

[Daan]

3 hours ago, elbekko said:

Plenty of bytes have been spilled on Pirate (before it went to carp) about axles warping when welding on trusses. So it's not that far fetched.

They usually pre- tension it in the opposite direction before welding, the big question is obviously how much.

I have not managed to bend an axle yet, even when I rolled it. I was just curious how many people actually managed it.

[dailysleaze]

This was on an overlander 110

[uninformed]

Regarding underneath vs on top....

for what these are doing, underneath will be in tension, top side will be in compression. Now its been pointed out to me that steel, has the same strength in both tension and compression IF BUCKLING CAN BE ELIMINATED. How one does this with the same materail size  I do not know.

 

Example, get some 3mm mild steel wire. Hang it vertically, how much weight would it hold at the bottom.... stand it vertically, how much weight would it support at top?

 

Problem with any of these added to a stock housing is the added stiffness ends well before the axle flanges..... not ideal but not saying they are junk either

[Bowie69]

10 hours ago, dailysleaze said:

This was on an overlander 110

 

Salisbury, fairly well known for pulling tubes out the casing, and also why when trussing a larger 'Dana' style axle in the US, they run right over the top of the diff pumpkin, and weld to the tubes, to stop them twisting out under high torque.

[Cynic-al]

You are correct in saying that if it were in tension you could get the required strength over that length with a thinner section, however that isn't the only load on this sort of thing, it has to take all the knocks of landing on rocks and being dragged through mud, so in reality the thickness of the steel is more for this than the prevention of axle bending and obviously putting on top gives less hindrance as your driving. Also you can pick up things like spring seats. It's a hard thing to design for as you are trying to predict where the load is coming from. Is it from the weight of the vehicle pushing down, is it from the front when you plough into a rock, is it twisting as you slide sideways into a gully? Is it the torque of the 40" wheel? By adding a brace like this your increasing the second moment of area, but only in the one direction... well 2 for this product I guess as it's a U shape so you get 2 vertical webs and a horizontal. And I guess it's also help with torsion... and buckling. 😓 It makes my brain hurt.  

I always think the highest stress point must be between the spring and the wheel, it will tail away as it gets towards the diff as it's acting like a lever? Unless you bottom out the a-frame I guess? And the same idea for the forwards to backwards load, between the radius arm mount and the wheel? In terms of fatigue I would imagine where the spring seats are welded on, the shocks, the arm mounts, anywhere where there is a constant loading and unloading. 

[RedLineMike]

1 hour ago, Cynic-al said:

You are correct in saying that if it were in tension you could get the required strength over that length with a thinner section, however that isn't the only load on this sort of thing, it has to take all the knocks of landing on rocks and being dragged through mud, so in reality the thickness of the steel is more for this than the prevention of axle bending and obviously putting on top gives less hindrance as your driving. Also you can pick up things like spring seats. It's a hard thing to design for as you are trying to predict where the load is coming from. Is it from the weight of the vehicle pushing down, is it from the front when you plough into a rock, is it twisting as you slide sideways into a gully? Is it the torque of the 40" wheel? By adding a brace like this your increasing the second moment of area, but only in the one direction... well 2 for this product I guess as it's a U shape so you get 2 vertical webs and a horizontal. And I guess it's also help with torsion... and buckling. 😓 It makes my brain hurt.  

I always think the highest stress point must be between the spring and the wheel, it will tail away as it gets towards the diff as it's acting like a lever? Unless you bottom out the a-frame I guess? And the same idea for the forwards to backwards load, between the radius arm mount and the wheel? In terms of fatigue I would imagine where the spring seats are welded on, the shocks, the arm mounts, anywhere where there is a constant loading and unloading. 

from compsafari'ing, the weight of the diff can also be a cause in bending the tubes from repeated heavy landings

 

[Dave W]

On 7/23/2018 at 9:22 PM, Daan said:

Anyone on here actually bend an axle?

Daan

I have, bent the rear axle on my motor, probably on the Outback Challenge. Took ages to figure out that it was bent though, the rear diff lock would leak air under load (fine on the drive) and I spent a LOT of time trying to fix it. New air seals, rebuilt the diff, replaced shafts, all the pipework etc...

In the end, out of desperation, swapped the axle casing for a spare and, lo and behold, never had an issue again. The axle wasn't bent much, just a few mm but the slight misalignment where the half shaft went into the diff must have been twisting it enough to unseal the O ring and let the air out. Think it was due to a heavy landing at speed but I don't actually know for certain when I bent it, could have been on a trial ! The problem first appeared about 6 months after getting the motor back from Australia.

[Snagger]

On 7/24/2018 at 1:42 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

Never heard of that one, thought all Sals were the same?

I heard it was the HD version that was 8mm, the usual being 6, and that it was merely an option for both 110 and 130, not standard on either.

[Ex Member]

The parts book says 110s with GVW over 3050 kg and all 130s prior to LA930435 (Drums).  Should have a 21S for normal and 24S for HD.  Then some V8 110s after and all 130s (Discs).  39S for normal and 38S for heavy duty.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Red90

[FridgeFreezer]

Cool, I'll have to check under the 127 then!

[Ed Poore]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Cool, I'll have to check under the 127 then!

If you've bent it I've got a normal one surplus to requirements . At least I'd expect it to be a normal one from a disc braked 300Tdi 110 CSW.