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109 V8 chassis options?


Chicken Drumstick

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Ok, so I’m wanting to put the feelers out for ideas/suggestions. This is probably going to be a longish post…. But I know there are some super intelligent and experienced people on this forum. So, I thank you in advance for taking the time to read and respond.

For the moment, please ignore any IVA related concerns. At present I’m wanting to explore what is physically possible. Once established I will cross reference with IVA regulations (I’m very familiar with them) and what will be allowed for each scenario. I say this, as I’m not wanting to bog the topic down with regulation discussions. But focus more on the engineering and mechanical side. I am not fussed about retaining a registration plate. My only focus is getting a vehicle to fulfill my intended use.


Starting point:

I have a Series III 109 hardtop/van. It currently has a Rover V8 (3.5 4-barrel carb), I did not fit this engine. It is otherwise stock in terms of axle, suspension, steering and braking.

The gearbox is currently missing, but it was running a stock 4 speed Series LT-76 box and transfer case.

The chassis is completely shot and beyond saving…. The body work however is very very good, as are the doors and bulkhead. So, the vehicle itself is potentially worth saving.

 

Premise:

I would like to end up with a vehicle that is quiet and refined (as much as Land Rover can be), to be used for touring, camping, holidaying and green laning in. Thus, I would like it to ride fairly well and have a smooth quiet engine. While it will be used for green lanes, I would prefer to focus its ability for road use and handling. It doesn’t need to be a flex monster or even close too. I do not want to run a TDI engine (I have 2 TDI vehicles at present), they are great engines, but too noisy and unrefined for my goal. I would also like to retain a manual gearbox if possible or not prohibitively expensive.

I want to retain the seating and utility of a 109. It has a lot more space than an 88 does. And a Disco/Range Rover doesn’t have the utility I’m after. I also want the side facing seats as they are very useful. I’ve priced up 110’s and I believe it will be cheaper to build something specifically suited to my needs/wants.

I have already done a lot of spreadsheet work with figures before posting here and have some “ball-park” ideas of total costs. A Td5 or TDCi 110 will cost significantly more money than what I have planned. And I can’t spread the cost or build by spending all the money on just the purchase of the vehicle. Hence the options/ideas I’m looking at instead of a 110.


Obviously, the first big hurdle to solve is the chassis.

But nobody makes a 109 V8 chassis. Richards Chassis do a 109, so I could modify the engine mounts for the V8. They also offer a Stage 1 chassis which would take the V8, but I don’t know what other parts I’d need (steering) to make this chassis work for this application.

My main reservations about doing this are quite simple:
    The cost of a 109 or Stage 1 chassis is a fairly significant purchase
    I’d be limited to the LT-76 Series transmission or maybe the LT-95 for a Stage 1. Neither are gearboxes I desire to run
    I’d still have Series steering. Fitting PAS would require more mods to a new galv chassis.
    It would still be the narrow Series axles and leaf springs. Parabolics are available, but pricey and a coil axle conversion is more cost and complexity (steering) while not improving to coil suspension.

This all means, there are no options for a simple buy and bolt together rebuild that I know of. Any Stage 1 gurus care to comment how easy it would be to use a Stage 1 chassis?


Doing such a rebuild would probably be better using a standard 4cyl chassis and fitting either a Series or Tdi engine and then selling the vehicle on. But I find this unappealing.

So, thinking further ahead to other possibilities there are some alternative tracks I could take. Let’s start with engine choices. 

 

Engines:

I have 2 main engine options, with a 3rd as a left field build idea. The engine choice however will have some bearing on the feasibility of what to do about the chassis.

Option 1 – stick with the Rover V8, either the 3.5 that’s already in it (it runs, nothing wrong with it), or a 3.9-4.6 from another vehicle. RV8’s are still quite attainable for sensible money and can be bought in donor vehicles too. The obvious downside is performance, while a Megasquirted modded 4.6 goes well. A stockish low CR 3.5 is underwhelming for its mpg. But they are smooth and refined. I would want to run the LT-77 or R380 with this engine choice.

Option 2 – Chevy LS1 5.7 V8. The key here is, I already have one of these engines. So, the additional cost is only to get it fitted and the transmission. There is £0 cost to get the engine. Big benefit here is the power, refinement and likely improved mpg over the RV8. Oh, and did I say power… An easy 350hp/350ft-lb with no mods. My intent would be to run an LT-230 and an R380 via Marks Adapters in Australia. I have found a few running this successfully. I know the engine is beyond the gearbox rating, but I think it would hang together to be usable. And R380’s are cheap and available. At present I’m not looking at any other gearbox options, as they all seem a lot more expensive and/or are not available off the shelf and would be fully bespoke.

Option 3 – I’ll mention in a bit.

 

Chassis:

Now this is where it gets a little tricky….. And arguably where I need your help the most and your insight.


Chassis Option 1 – Obviously as stated earlier, Land Rover never made a 109 V8 apart from the Stage 1. I could buy a new Richards chassis for a 109 and alter the mounts for a Rover V8 or buy their Stage 1 chassis. But I’m sure other mods will potentially be needed if using the Stage 1 chassis. And without further mods I’ll only have a choice of LT-76 or LT-95 transmissions. The latter is a nice strong unit. But tbh 5 gears or more would be my choice. So, I could look at an LT-230 swap and LT-77/R380, but this will require more work to a new chassis. And at the end of the day I’ll be left with leaf springs, Series axles and drums all round, unless other mods are done.

This isn’t likely to be a candidate for LS1 power, just to keeping the RV8. Maybe in 3.5 guise and 150-160hp range. And I don’t think ‘Chassis Option 1’ is going to deliver what I’m after from the intended vehicle.


Chassis Option 2 – Designa chassis would likely offer a custom coiler chassis for a 109. That would fit a Rover V8 and potentially even a LS1 with the correct gearbox mounting points. I don’t have final figures on this, but it is likely to cost a fair chunk more than a Richards 109 chassis. If going this route, I would look to buy a donor Discovery for the axles, brakes, rad, gearbox, radius arms, A-frame, etc.

However, this does work out to be the most expensive option when all said and done. Doing the same and going for an RV8 over the LS1 would only be the cost of the adapter cheaper for the most part. Which I think would equate to about £2k. For this price level I think spending the extra for the LS1 would be worthwhile.


Chassis Option 3 – I have no idea how feasible this is. But it struck me as an idea. Richards Chassis offer a V8 110 chassis. This is cheaper than a 109 chassis and I suspect significantly cheaper than a Designa coiler 109 chassis. Cost is the appeal here.

    How easy is it to fit a 109 body to a 110 chassis? Can it be done without huge additional cost/modding? I know the wheelbase is 1” different, but aftermarket wheel arch flares could cater for this on the body. And I know the outriggers are different. But I’m guessing this has been done before.

If going this route, I would also source a donor Discovery for all the running gear/axles, etc.

I know it’s an unconventional approach. But seems mechanically to be quite straight forward. Assuming the body can be made to fit…

So to sum up, it’s all about balancing the cost, with the right chassis, the right engine and the right gearbox combo. I think it is completely possible to build the desired vehicle for reasonable money. But I’m not sure which direction to take it in yet.

 

______________________________________________________


My left field option if all the above fails.

Buy a good running manual p38 Range Rover (probably a diesel). Lift the body off and ditch some of the wiring, retaining just enough to run the engine. And weld on the 109 out riggers and rear cross member and bolt on the 109 body to the chassis.

I’d even be tempted to try and keep the air suspension. According to my spreadsheet figures this actually works out as the cheapest option too and by some margin.

😃
 

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1. You can weld so bolt together isn't an absolute requirement.

2. Cost is a factor, so a cheap donor is appealing.

In which case the left field option gets my vote (probably because I like a nice hybrid) but maybe try and find an LSE classic with a rotten body instead of the P38. Less electrickery, more conventional straight chassis rails so outriggers etc can be bought off the shelf.

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Ignoring the legal/IVA side as requested, the simplest solution would just be to buy a 110 V8 chassis, that way you can have coil springs, PAS, your V8 engine and R380 manual box all with standard and easily available parts. A 109 body will fit on a 110 chassis with some modifications or use of some 90/110 parts.

The P38 option sounds cool though!

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Option 1 : Talk to Richards as they love challenges

Option 2 : Have s Stage One chassis and learn to live with the not too bad gearbox

Option 3 : fit a 109 body on a 110 chassis

Bon Courage !

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Designa chassis will be able to do whatever you want. I have had three from them over the years, and thoroughly recommend them. All cost the same more or less than a standard chassis.

I get the impression that you DONT want leaf springs, and that you REALLY want to use the LS ? ANY diesel is out ?

Smoothness and refinement ? Auto gearbox all the way. Much better than ANY ghastly (and relatively fragile) LR manual box. 

I personally don't get this need for huge engines and squillions of horsepower and torque which will require all non LR running gear (plus the insurance and IVA implications) Its not a Land Rover any more, so easier and cheaper to just go any buy a Landcruiser instead. Of course some more power is desirable, but its not a sports car.

The P38 idea seems fine to me, IF you can find a worthwhile chassis under a suitably inexpensive vehicle. Its only a rebody job, so no IVA complications, but isnt the road tax 'kin expensive on them ? Frankensteining I think its called ? All the engineering refinement already done !

For me though, given your specs regarding regulations etc, I would go for a coil sprung 109 (or 100 inch) series Designa chassis, with mounts for a Defender/Disco, or even a P38 steering box. Fitted with Defender gearbox crossmember (removable) Mounts to suit a ZF autobox and V8 Rover.

Or in other words, a 110 V8 chassis that LOOKS like a series type chassis.

BUT, regarding the engine, I am no great fan of the Rover V8 nowadays, although I suspect that I may end up using one on my own project, but what about a BMW M57 diesel coupled to a ZF Auto ? Prestige car engine with good economy and reliability, plus good parts availability ?

There is no right answer to this, I am guessing that you already know what you SHOULD do, but your heart wants something else ?

You will end up with a headache just like me, trying to choose between a Rover 4.6 V8, Lexus UZ FE, or a BMW M57, and not getting anything done.  Stupidly though, the Rover engine seems to be the easiest, but most expensive option !  But I like the idea of a different cocktail of standard parts ……………………..

 

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12 hours ago, mickeyw said:

When I enquired, some years ago, Richards were open to custom builds. Therefore you could ask them for a 109 leaf sprung chassis, with V8 engine mounts and your gearbox of choice. 

When I spoke to Richards a few years back about my 88 project (the one in my avatar). They were uninterested in any alterations from a standard chassis. So I used a 2nd hand chassis for the rebuild in the end.

That said, I have emailed them regarding V8 109's and their Stage 1 chassis. But no reply yet, might have to phone them if I get chance.

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12 hours ago, smallfry said:

Designa chassis will be able to do whatever you want. I have had three from them over the years, and thoroughly recommend them. All cost the same more or less than a standard chassis.

I get the impression that you DONT want leaf springs, and that you REALLY want to use the LS ? ANY diesel is out ?

Smoothness and refinement ? Auto gearbox all the way. Much better than ANY ghastly (and relatively fragile) LR manual box. 

I personally don't get this need for huge engines and squillions of horsepower and torque which will require all non LR running gear (plus the insurance and IVA implications) Its not a Land Rover any more, so easier and cheaper to just go any buy a Landcruiser instead. Of course some more power is desirable, but its not a sports car.

The P38 idea seems fine to me, IF you can find a worthwhile chassis under a suitably inexpensive vehicle. Its only a rebody job, so no IVA complications, but isnt the road tax 'kin expensive on them ? Frankensteining I think its called ? All the engineering refinement already done !

For me though, given your specs regarding regulations etc, I would go for a coil sprung 109 (or 100 inch) series Designa chassis, with mounts for a Defender/Disco, or even a P38 steering box. Fitted with Defender gearbox crossmember (removable) Mounts to suit a ZF autobox and V8 Rover.

Or in other words, a 110 V8 chassis that LOOKS like a series type chassis.

BUT, regarding the engine, I am no great fan of the Rover V8 nowadays, although I suspect that I may end up using one on my own project, but what about a BMW M57 diesel coupled to a ZF Auto ? Prestige car engine with good economy and reliability, plus good parts availability ?

There is no right answer to this, I am guessing that you already know what you SHOULD do, but your heart wants something else ?

You will end up with a headache just like me, trying to choose between a Rover 4.6 V8, Lexus UZ FE, or a BMW M57, and not getting anything done.  Stupidly though, the Rover engine seems to be the easiest, but most expensive option !  But I like the idea of a different cocktail of standard parts ……………………..

 

Yes I think you are right on many fronts and I agree with much you say :)

The only thing I differ on is the auto box. I have nothing against them, very much liked the one in my Jeep 4.0 litre off road. And it actually convinced me how good they are off roading. But I just don't overly enjoy them on the road.

I have a tidy 4.6 p38 auto at the moment (too tidy to sacrifice for this project). And I have an automatic Camaro z28 LS1 (which is were the engine would come from). I also bought a manual Camaro z28 LS1 last year (yes, I have 2! And probably way too many vehicles overall 😜 ) . The automatics are perfectly adequate to get from A to B. But they remove a large portion of the driving experience for me.

Plus a 4 speed auto will always have compromised gearing, reducing performance and economy compared to a 5 or 6 speed manual with the same engine.

I don't have anything against diesels exactly. But there is no denying petrol is quieter and more refined. Modern diesel cars are quiet, but that is more the vehicle than the engine. And putting the same engine in an old vehicle will make it seem more nosy.

 

Power isn't everything, but 200hp+ would be nice for my intended use and desired thrills. And most of the LR diesels that are viable to swap in are not really going to offer this. I'm used to fairly speedy vehicles with Camaro's and the p38 runs quite well too with the 4.6

The M57, while I agree is a good engine. Just adds a lot more cost and complexity. The only reason for considering the LS1 is because I already have it. And on face value is pretty much the ideal engine. Although I'm having reservations about bolting it to an R380 now. And I don't have the funds to pump into spending 4-6k extra on just the transmission. Which is what it seems it will cost to do anything else.

I have nothing really against the Rover V8, as said I have a 4.6 p38 at the moment. I also have a Triumph TR7 V8 with a 3.9 in. But there is no denying the LS1 is a superior engine.

 

Likewise with leaf springs. I don't really have anything against them directly. But choice and cost of leaf springs is limited and expensive. And again, they don't ride as well as coils. Parabolics get close in some regards, but still not as good. The bigger limiting factor is the axles. I know more work and cost I could fit coiler axles to a leaf sprung vehicle. But if I could start with coil springs it would be less work.

 

I hate to say it, but I think using the LS1 just isn't going to be viable for my budget.

 

Using a p38 chassis has it's own appeal. But somehow feels like it's more of a RR rebody than a 109 rebuild, if you know what I mean.

I'll contact Designa today, have been holding off until I had a little clarity in direction.

I don't know if they can cater for it, but a 109 coil chassis designed to accept D2 running gear would be quite appealing. i.e. buy a donar 4.0 manual D2 and transfer the axles, radius arms, engine and transmission over. But it maybe easier to use a D1 with the more conventional A-arm and Defender style front radius arms.

Edited by Chicken Drumstick
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1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

When I spoke to Richards a few years back about my 88 project (the one in my avatar). They were uninterested in any alterations from a standard chassis. So I used a 2nd hand chassis for the rebuild in the end.

That said, I have emailed them regarding V8 109's and their Stage 1 chassis. But no reply yet, might have to phone them if I get chance.

Well as I said, it was a few years ago. They were showing their goods at Billing (don't think I've been there for at least 10 years), and I had a good chat with one of their guys.

I daresay since then they've had their fill of people messing them around wanting all sorts of peculiarities.

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Using the P38 would be a rebody rather than a 109 rebuild, but if refinement with a utility body is your objective, I can't see how you'd beat it. 

I think you underestimate decent parabolics.  Yes, they're expensive, but the ride on my 109 was far steadier and smoother than on the standard 90XS.  A lot of how they behave is down to damping, and LR made the TDCI 90s with far too stiff suspension.  So, saying coils are better isn't always true.

The argument for retaining standard Series steering is also flawed.  Chassis mods to fit a simple bracket for a P38 PAS box (now the generally preferred method) are so simple as to be near trivial.  The same can be said for transmission and engine mountings.  So a 109 chassis can be very easily adapted to suit, the biggest issue being whether you want the short or long bonnet - the short bonnet will allow a Rover V8 and a stubby R380 without much difficulty, but if you want anything bigger, you'll probably need the long bonnet and a Stage 1 chassis to move the front cross member forward.  That is the only big decision to make before ordering.  Elliptical or parabolic can be left to later, and the PAS bracket incorporated in the same place on the 4-cyl or V8 type chassis during construction for what should be a minimal charge.  You can muck about with engine and transmission mounts later.

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Keeping it simple tends to make things more achievable; certainly, the most ambitious builds do have a habit of ending up never seeing the light of day. So starting with a 109 or 110 chassis makes your live a factor 10 easier. You know all about parabolics from your 88" build, so you are best qualified to make that judgement. Certainly grille backwards at all cost, should be easy achievable on a LWB with almost any engine.

If P38 running gear takes your fancy, a 110 chassis I reckon could work best; swap axles, box and engine. Could be ok under IVA rules if you start with a 110 V8 chassis and V5. Tax wise much better than trying to base it on a P38 chassis.

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I spoke to Ian at Designa a couple of months ago, and he told me they were embroiled in developing Disco chassis...……….. Didn't ask which one though.So not much time for anything else at that time.  I imagine that they, like Richards, spend a great deal of time working out quotes for special builds that are never ordered, or ones that have not been thought through properly by the customer and need modification halfway through.

Lots of good sense here, keeping it simple will hopefully ensure it actually makes it on the road (or off it) Beauty of a LWB is that you can push the engine and (auto, sorry) box right back and retain the luverly series grille.

Parabolics were a revelation to me too. MUCH better than rusty standard ones. My overiding memories of leaf springs are of axle tramp in RWD cars back in the day, and series Land Rovers which made the flab on me chest, sorry I mean me six pack jump about. I must say I think that boinky boink suspension is much nicer on a road biased vehicle, rather than feeling like riding on a trolley jack !

I have nothing against an LS either, although I do have a preference for Auto gearboxes. What I don't like is having to pay excessive insurance !

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Thanks for the replies. All good and interesting info :)

Insurance won’t be an issue. I currently own 3 fairly heavily modded vehciles. All correctly legal and declared insurance wise. On limited mileage policies they are quite reasonable. 

As for the LS1 and autos. I have 4l60e gearbox. But nobody makes an adapter to the LT230. There is an adapter for the 4l80e gearbox to LT230. These are used in GM trucks and be big SUV’s. Something pretty thin on the ground in the U.K. The factory 6.0 litre V12 Jaguars also used this gearbox. But also rare. 

 

In the interests of research. Does anyone know of a build fitting a 109 body to a 110 chassis? Or anyone any ideas of problem areas? I can think of a few bits. But they all seem solvable. 

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Fitting a 109 body to a 110 chassis will require nothing more to the chassis than some bracket tweaks.  The tub mountings should be the same and the bulkhead outriggers will be in the right place; you might just need to shim or shave the bolt tube in the A-post foot to get the door aperture size correct.  You'll need to fit a cross member and brackets to support the rad panel, which will deal with supporting the front of the wings.  The 110 front cross member will probably be hidden by the Series' apron panel.

The biggest problem you're going to face is the aft wheels being way back in the Series wheel arch - it's not just the extra inch wheelbase but also that the front axle is further aft too.  I think the only way you'll get a good look is for a body shop to cut the wheel arch section out and move it back, or to move the whole side panels back and add a strip at the front edge to meet the B-pillar, and re-profile the bottom edges behind the wheel arch.  The other way around it would be to move the 110 axle locations to match the 109's by moving the suspension brackets.  I really wouldn't like to say which would be most work, but at least the axle move will get the right appearance of wheel positions and the modification work will all be out of sight, so welds and seams wouldn't need such aesthetic perfection.

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Another option could be to find another chassis with stronger axles than land rover ones that you can put the series body on.
This is the route I'm going just now although I think it's going to turn into an off roader instead of a road going vehicle. 

I think you would really regret not using your LS1, it is so flexible, light and easy to work with if you have all the bits. If you want a 109 wheelbase then you have loads of room to divorce an lt230. Rakeway does a shaft for £235 plus vat (it was in 2016) then you can use any manual gearbox that just bolts up to the LS1. I used a Volvo 6x6 chassis which already had portals and lockers , RH drop and the same flanges and is a mild steel fabrication so easy to work with.

I wouldn't contemplate landy axles unless you fill them with Ashcroft goodies. Not needing a fancy adaptor and using a remote transfer might free up some cash for them? Then a 110 chassis and an old disco would have you most of the way there. You could look at Nissan Axles too as they're strong and an easy fit. 

 This might give you some inspiration. Your intended use might help us to suggest alternative chassis or running gear.

Edited by Jamie_grieve
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